toki! en lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona

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salikh.zakirov

toki! en lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona

Postby salikh.zakirov » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:29 pm


mi kama sona e toki pona. toki pona li pona tawa mi.

Mi wile lukin e lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona. Tempo ali la, nimi lili pi toki
pona li jo e sona.
Tan ni la, nimi lili mute pi toki toki pona li jo e sona mute kin. Jan ali li
ken kepeken e nimi ali.
Tan ni la, jan sama ala li lukin la, nimi sama li ken jo e sona sama ala.
Taso, sona pi nimi mute wan li musi. Tan ni la, mi wile lukin e sona nimi mute.

Tenpo lili pini la, mi kute e ni: jan John Clifford li jo e lipu mute pi nimi
mute.
Nimi li mute mute. Mi wile lukin e lipu mute ni. Ona li lon ala lon ilo
Internet?
Mi ken ala ken lukin e ona?
Sina toki tawa mi e lipu mute pi nimi la, sina pana pona tawa mi.
Pona mute!

Hi! (* English translation is a richer and approximate translation of toki pona
*)
This message is addressed to John Clifford.

I study toki pona. I like it.
I would like to see a dictionary of toki pona word phrases. At all times, all
toki pona words maintain
their individual primitive meanings. For this reason, word phrases always can
have many meanings.
(* and so _normative_ toki pona dictionary is neither possible, nor desired,
according to the will of Kisa, as far as I understand it *)
Anyone can use any words. Threrefore, different people may see different
meanings in same word phrases.
However, it is interesting how word phrases accrue meaning. That's why I would
like to see a word phrase collection.

Recently, I heard that John Clifford has quite a large collection of tokipona
word phrases.
I would like to see it. Is it available anywhere on the internet?
Is there any chance to see it?
I would greatly appreciate, if you tell me about this glossary.
Thank you very much!

(* Words that I am not exactly sure how to express:
to mean = jo e sona
meaning = sona nimi
dictionary = lipu [mute] pi nimi mute
word phrase = nimi mute wan *)

(* P.S. Corrections and comments are welcome from anyone, not just Mr. Clifford
*)


John E Clifford

Re: toki! en lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona

Postby John E Clifford » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:01 pm


pona a!  toki sina li wile e toki mi lili.  'tenpo' not 'tempo' (though it is
pronounced that way and every other language spells it that way -- we have
almost all done this). Probably, 'jan ante, rather than 'jan sama ala' which
can (more naturally?) mean 'no siblings' Looking at the trat, I would suggest
'kulupu nimi' for 'word phrases'. (The tp dictionary is a list of things that
people have used for various purposes. If you have the same purpose, you might
want to use one of their efforts. Or make a better one on our own. I expect
that some will become idioms (indeed, several have already) but that will just
be norma loquendi, not rules from the dictionary in the sky -- or on the web,
which amounts to the same thing). I don't follow 'sona pi nimi mute wan li musi'
even with the trat: 'One meaning of many words (or the meaning of 'one many
words') is amusing -- sorry I am forgetting some meaning in the outer reaches of
some of these words.
What I have is a couple of excel files (en-tp, tp-en) which list most of the
translations of words or phrases that I have isolated from the texts on this
list and a few other websites. It is now about a year out of date, with some
recent updates and needs a thorough revision for all sorts of technical reasons.
It also has a temporary status since jan Sonja is working on something official.
But, if you have excel and I can manage to send it to you, you are welcome to
have it.


________________________________
From: salikh.zakirov <salikh.zakirov@yahoo.com>
To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:29:52 AM
Subject: [tokipona] toki! en lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona


mi kama sona e toki pona. toki pona li pona tawa mi.

Mi wile lukin e lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona. Tempo ali la, nimi lili pi toki
pona li jo e sona.
Tan ni la, nimi lili mute pi toki toki pona li jo e sona mute kin. Jan ali li
ken kepeken e nimi ali.
Tan ni la, jan sama ala li lukin la, nimi sama li ken jo e sona sama ala.
Taso, sona pi nimi mute wan li musi. Tan ni la, mi wile lukin e sona nimi mute.

Tenpo lili pini la, mi kute e ni: jan John Clifford li jo e lipu mute pi nimi
mute.
Nimi li mute mute. Mi wile lukin e lipu mute ni. Ona li lon ala lon ilo
Internet?
Mi ken ala ken lukin e ona?
Sina toki tawa mi e lipu mute pi nimi la, sina pana pona tawa mi.
Pona mute!

Hi! (* English translation is a richer and approximate translation of toki pona
*)
This message is addressed to John Clifford.

I study toki pona. I like it.
I would like to see a dictionary of toki pona word phrases. At all times, all
toki pona words maintain
their individual primitive meanings. For this reason, word phrases always can
have many meanings.
(* and so _normative_ toki pona dictionary is neither possible, nor desired,
according to the will of Kisa, as far as I understand it *)
Anyone can use any words. Threrefore, different people may see different
meanings in same word phrases.
However, it is interesting how word phrases accrue meaning. That's why I would
like to see a word phrase collection.

Recently, I heard that John Clifford has quite a large collection of tokipona
word phrases.
I would like to see it. Is it available anywhere on the internet?
Is there any chance to see it?
I would greatly appreciate, if you tell me about this glossary.
Thank you very much!

(* Words that I am not exactly sure how to express:
to mean = jo e sona
meaning = sona nimi
dictionary = lipu [mute] pi nimi mute
word phrase = nimi mute wan *)

(* P.S. Corrections and comments are welcome from anyone, not just Mr. Clifford
*)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


salikh.zakirov

Re: toki! en lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona

Postby salikh.zakirov » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:12 am


pona mute a!

tenpo ni, mi toki sitelen e toki Inli.

> toki sina li wile e toki mi lili.
Nice way to describe cause! :)
"Your text requires some comments from me", I suppose?

It seems to me, this very language use defies intended purpose of toki pona: to
clearly define who wants or does what. It is very amusing to see how the
language lives and grows out of the walls set out by its creator.

> 'tenpo' not 'tempo' (though it is pronounced that way and every
> other language spells it that way -- we have almost all done this).

Indeed. I try to correct this whenever I notice, but fingers stubbornly want to
type "tempo".

> Probably, 'jan ante', rather than 'jan sama ala' which can (more
> naturally?) mean 'no siblings'

I stand corrected.&#12288;Thanks!

> Looking at the trat, I would suggest 'kulupu nimi' for 'word phrases'.

Thanks! I was trying to use 'nimi mute wan' as 'many words united', but the
meaning apparently haven't got through. I agree that 'kulupu nimi' sounds
better.

> The tp dictionary is a list of things that people have used for
> various purposes. If you have the same purpose, you might want to
> use one of their efforts. Or make a better one on our own. I
> expect that some will become idioms (indeed, several have already)
> but that will just be norma loquendi, not rules from the dictionary
> in the sky -- or on the web, which amounts to the same thing).

100% agreed. In fact, I am very glad to hear such an opinion, as multiple
tokiponists comments on the net suggest that the two extremist camps: "idiomatic
dictionaries are required" or "idioms are unacceptable, you need to construct
meaning each time in the context" prevail.

> I don't follow 'sona pi nimi mute wan li musi' even with the trat:
> 'One meaning of many words (or the meaning of 'one many words') is
> amusing -- sorry I am forgetting some meaning in the outer reaches
> of some of these words.

What I intended was 'meaning of word phrases is interesting'.
Sorry for the awkward english text, because it was backward translation from
toki pona.

> What I have is a couple of excel files (en-tp, tp-en) which ...
> It also has a temporary status since jan Sonja is working on
> something official. But, if you have excel and I can manage to
> send it to you, you are welcome to have it.

Yes, I would very much appreciate if you send it to me
Either to this address or 'salikh LON gmail com'.
Thank you very much!


salikh.zakirov

Re: toki! en lipu mute pi nimi pi toki pona

Postby salikh.zakirov » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:20 am


pona mute a!

tenpo ni la, mi toki sitelen lon toki Inli.

> toki sina li wile e toki mi lili.

"Your text requires some comments", I suppose?
Nice way to show cause! It seems to me that this particular
phrase defeats the limitations of the language, that jan Sonja
has set up in order to have clear definition of "who wants what"
by the language means.

> Probably, 'jan ante, rather than 'jan sama ala' which can
> (more naturally?) mean 'no siblings'

I stand corrected, thanks.

> Looking at the trat, I would suggest 'kulupu nimi' for 'word phrases'.

I was trying to use 'nimi mute wan', but apparently the meaning is not obvious,
and 'kulupu nimi' sounds better. Thanks!

> The tp dictionary is a list of things that people have used for
> various purposes. If you have the same purpose, you might want to
> use one of their efforts. Or make a better one on our own.
> I expect that some will become idioms (indeed, several have
> already) but that will just be norma loquendi, not rules from the
> dictionary in the sky -- or on the web, which amounts to the same
> thing).

100% agreed. I am very happy to hear such an opinion, while prevailing in the
internet comments are from two extreme camps:
"idioms are not acceptable in tokipona, you need to construct meaning each time
in context" and "tokipona require idiom dictionary".

> I don't follow 'sona pi nimi mute wan li musi' ...

I was intending "meaning of word phrases is interesting".
But this should probably had been:
'sona pi kulupu nimi li musi tawa mi'

> What I have is a couple of excel files (en-tp, tp-en) ...
> But, if you have excel and I can manage to send it to you, you are
> welcome to have it.

I would be more than happy if you can send the files to
'salikh LON gmail.com'
Thank you very much!



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