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How to say "Tokiponology"? - Toki Pona Forums

How to say "Tokiponology"?

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zlaod
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How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby zlaod » Tue May 19, 2009 4:31 pm


Hi everybody! Missionary work's going great!

How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona? You know, like people who study the
Esperanto movement are Esperantologists (as opposed to ordinary Interlinguists),
which would either be "Esperantologistoj" or "Esperantologoj." So what do you
call somebody whose academic speciality is studying the Toki Pona movement?

(Putting together a file on you guys in case Toki Pona gets adopted by the
Antichrist for his one-world government.)


Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ
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Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ » Tue May 19, 2009 6:04 pm


2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@yahoo.com>:
> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?

sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?

> "Esperantologoj." So what do you call somebody whose academic speciality is
> studying the Toki Pona movement?

jan sona pi toki pona

jan Loliko


Jim Henry
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Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby Jim Henry » Tue May 19, 2009 6:21 pm


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ
<philoglot@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@yahoo.com>:
>> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?
>
> sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?

ni li pona. ken la, "nasin sona pi toki pona" li pona kin.

--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/


jan_sewe
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Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby jan_sewe » Tue May 19, 2009 7:29 pm


--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ
> <philoglot@...> wrote:
> > 2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@...>:
> >> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?
> >
> > sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?
>
> ni li pona. ken la, "nasin sona pi toki pona" li pona kin.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
>
I like "nasin sona pi toki pona" (although it seems to suggest that tp's a way
to know things...). But in general, words in -gy begin with sona:

Tokiponology -> sona pi toki pona

However this is a concept, and Toki Pona doesn't like them very much. Most of
the time you'll just be saying "toki pona" if you mean the language, or "sona
pona" if you mean the (Taoist) underlying philosophy.

Tokiponologist -> jan pi toki pona (Toki Pona speaker), or jan sona pi toki pona
(Toki Pona teacher/specialist)

But then again, you'll use "jan pi toki pona" most often, unless you want to
emphasize great knowledge of the language.


zlaod
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Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby zlaod » Thu May 21, 2009 4:56 am


Thanks all! I'll try to learn the language before our symposium tomorrow.
(Otherwise I'll just make stuff up.)

Here in Taiwan, most people are what you would call Daoists. I'll be sure to
mention the connection.

What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.


--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, "jan_sewe" <serge.g@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ
> > <philoglot@> wrote:
> > > 2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@>:
> > >> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?
> > >
> > > sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?
> >
> > ni li pona. ken la, "nasin sona pi toki pona" li pona kin.
> >
> > --
> > Jim Henry
> > http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> >
> I like "nasin sona pi toki pona" (although it seems to suggest that tp's a way
to know things...). But in general, words in -gy begin with sona:
>
> Tokiponology -> sona pi toki pona
>
> However this is a concept, and Toki Pona doesn't like them very much. Most of
the time you'll just be saying "toki pona" if you mean the language, or "sona
pona" if you mean the (Taoist) underlying philosophy.
>
> Tokiponologist -> jan pi toki pona (Toki Pona speaker), or jan sona pi toki
pona (Toki Pona teacher/specialist)
>
> But then again, you'll use "jan pi toki pona" most often, unless you want to
emphasize great knowledge of the language.
>


Jim Henry
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Re: Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby Jim Henry » Tue May 26, 2009 12:50 pm


On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:56 AM, zlaod <zlaod@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.

Several of the people on this list use the word "concept"
in ways that seem odd to me -- not sure if they're
not native speakers of English, or speakers of
dialects other than mine. I would tend to use
the word "abstraction" in most of the contexts
where e.g. jan_sewe was using "concept" in
recent posts. To me "conceptual thought"
is a pleonasm, like "archaic old things" or
"mnemonic memory" or "pulmonary lungs".
"conceptual" is the adjective form of "concept"
which is a fancy word for "a thought", not necessarily
an abstract thought, which is the kind of thought
that I think jan_sewe and some other toki pona
speakers think that toki pona discourages -- not
sure if I agree with them there, either. It seems
to me that e.g. "soweli" is more of an an abstraction
than concrete terms in other languages like "dog",
"kinkajou", "marmoset" etc.; "pipi" more abstract
than "bee", "junebug", "firefly", etc. (On the other
hand "soweli" and "pipi" are less exact and technical
terms than their closest equivalents in English,
"mammal" and "insect" -- the latter have connections
to scientific ideas about evolution and taxonomy
that aren't connoted by the toki pona terms.)

---
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/


jan_sewe
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Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby jan_sewe » Tue May 26, 2009 2:50 pm


--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:56 AM, zlaod <zlaod@...> wrote:
>
> > What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.
>
> Several of the people on this list use the word "concept"
> in ways that seem odd to me -- not sure if they're
> not native speakers of English, or speakers of
> dialects other than mine. I would tend to use
> the word "abstraction" in most of the contexts
> where e.g. jan_sewe was using "concept" in
> recent posts. To me "conceptual thought"
> is a pleonasm, like "archaic old things" or
> "mnemonic memory" or "pulmonary lungs".
> "conceptual" is the adjective form of "concept"
> which is a fancy word for "a thought", not necessarily
> an abstract thought, which is the kind of thought
> that I think jan_sewe and some other toki pona
> speakers think that toki pona discourages -- not
> sure if I agree with them there, either. It seems
> to me that e.g. "soweli" is more of an an abstraction
> than concrete terms in other languages like "dog",
> "kinkajou", "marmoset" etc.; "pipi" more abstract
> than "bee", "junebug", "firefly", etc. (On the other
> hand "soweli" and "pipi" are less exact and technical
> terms than their closest equivalents in English,
> "mammal" and "insect" -- the latter have connections
> to scientific ideas about evolution and taxonomy
> that aren't connoted by the toki pona terms.)
>
> ---
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
>
I don't know actually if my idea of a concept is the same as yours. Each Toki
Pona word is a concept in itself, but it's often difficult to understand what a
Toki Poka speaker means whenever he uses one of them, or a combination of them.
Whenever you say soweli - or soweli pona - in general you mean 'cat', 'dog',
'horse', but rarely 'mammal'!

Maybe Sonja has conceptualised the notion of mammal by means of soweli, but Toki
Pona speakers aren't being conceptual whenever they use it! And you can't just
say 'sona pi toki pona' and hope your reader will understand 'tokiponology', a
word that doesn't even exist in English...

But sometimes I do wonder if Sonja really invented Toki Pona alone: it looks
like she might have benefited from conversations with a few guys like you... :)


John E Clifford
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Re: Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Postby John E Clifford » Tue May 26, 2009 5:13 pm


Sorry to dip m professional oar in here,  but ... .  So the meaning of each tp
word is a concept, if you will. But it is an vague concept, that is, it
boundaries are not sharply demarcated, there are many gray areas (think of
'soweli' and 'kala' and where what we call 'whales' or 'dolphins' or 'porpoises'
go -- and this can be repeated with almost any two concepts that belong to the
same broad (very broad) field). Sonja has not conceptualized mammals with
'soweli' although a lot of things she calls 'soweli' are in fact what we call
'mammals' -- and maybe some aren't (and maybe conversely as well). Whatever can
be said about Sapir-Whorf (though that is damned little tthat is coherent) it is
certainly true that each language (even down to temporally delimited idiolects)
slices up reality in different ways. My English uses a finer grid that tp, but
a much thicker one than a biologist, when talking about animals (and don't get
me started on colors, where
I can't even agree at level one with half the people in the world). Now, of
course, when I talk tp I may not get rid of my English conceptualization and so,
when I say 'soweli' I mean in one case 'cat', in another 'dog' and so on. Or I
may try to recreate something like my English concept in tp by creating a
compound, which may or may not work to reduce the referent class of the
expression to something like the one I have in mind. Or, as I become a better
tper, I may actually use the tp concept and not any longer worry about the
differences between cats and dogs, if they don't matter for my narrative. If
they do, then I have to put the relevant stuff in -- which may or may not bear
some relation to the differences between what I can 'cat' and 'dog' in English.
In short, a tper ought to mean a soweli when he says 'soweli' and we ought to
understand it as such. If we look around and can't tell which one he is talking
about (assuming he is talking
about the critters around) then he may have failed to communicate -- or may be
onto something different altogether. I am not sure whether I would come up with
'tokiponology' as English for 'sona pi toki pona' (or even 'nasin sona pi toki
pona'), but it is pretty clear a pretty good shot.




________________________________
From: jan_sewe <serge.g@laposte.net>
To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:50:59 PM
Subject: [tokipona] Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?





--- In tokipona@yahoogroup s.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@ ...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:56 AM, zlaod <zlaod@...> wrote:
>
> > What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.
>
> Several of the people on this list use the word "concept"
> in ways that seem odd to me -- not sure if they're
> not native speakers of English, or speakers of
> dialects other than mine. I would tend to use
> the word "abstraction" in most of the contexts
> where e.g. jan_sewe was using "concept" in
> recent posts. To me "conceptual thought"
> is a pleonasm, like "archaic old things" or
> "mnemonic memory" or "pulmonary lungs".
> "conceptual" is the adjective form of "concept"
> which is a fancy word for "a thought", not necessarily
> an abstract thought, which is the kind of thought
> that I think jan_sewe and some other toki pona
> speakers think that toki pona discourages -- not
> sure if I agree with them there, either. It seems
> to me that e.g. "soweli" is more of an an abstraction
> than concrete terms in other languages like "dog",
> "kinkajou", "marmoset" etc.; "pipi" more abstract
> than "bee", "junebug", "firefly", etc. (On the other
> hand "soweli" and "pipi" are less exact and technical
> terms than their closest equivalents in English,
> "mammal" and "insect" -- the latter have connections
> to scientific ideas about evolution and taxonomy
> that aren't connoted by the toki pona terms.)
>
> ---
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox. com/~jimhenry/
>
I don't know actually if my idea of a concept is the same as yours. Each Toki
Pona word is a concept in itself, but it's often difficult to understand what a
Toki Poka speaker means whenever he uses one of them, or a combination of them.
Whenever you say soweli - or soweli pona - in general you mean 'cat', 'dog',
'horse', but rarely 'mammal'!

Maybe Sonja has conceptualised the notion of mammal by means of soweli, but Toki
Pona speakers aren't being conceptual whenever they use it! And you can't just
say 'sona pi toki pona' and hope your reader will understand 'tokiponology' , a
word that doesn't even exist in English...

But sometimes I do wonder if Sonja really invented Toki Pona alone: it looks
like she might have benefited from conversations with a few guys like you... :)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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