How to say "Tokiponology"?

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zlaod

How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by zlaod »

Hi everybody! Missionary work's going great!How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona? You know, like people who study theEsperanto movement are Esperantologists (as opposed to ordinary Interlinguists),which would either be "Esperantologistoj" or "Esperantologoj." So what do youcall somebody whose academic speciality is studying the Toki Pona movement?(Putting together a file on you guys in case Toki Pona gets adopted by theAntichrist for his one-world government.)
Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ

Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ »

2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@yahoo.com>:> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?> "Esperantologoj." So what do you call somebody whose academic speciality is> studying the Toki Pona movement?jan sona pi toki ponajan Loliko
Jim Henry

Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by Jim Henry »

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ<philoglot@gmail.com> wrote:> 2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@yahoo.com>:>> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?>> sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?ni li pona. ken la, "nasin sona pi toki pona" li pona kin.--Jim Henryhttp://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
jan_sewe

Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by jan_sewe »

--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@...> wrote:>> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ> <philoglot@...> wrote:> > 2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@...>:> >> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?> >> > sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?>> ni li pona. ken la, "nasin sona pi toki pona" li pona kin.>> --> Jim Henry> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/>I like "nasin sona pi toki pona" (although it seems to suggest that tp's a wayto know things...). But in general, words in -gy begin with sona:Tokiponology -> sona pi toki ponaHowever this is a concept, and Toki Pona doesn't like them very much. Most ofthe time you'll just be saying "toki pona" if you mean the language, or "sonapona" if you mean the (Taoist) underlying philosophy.Tokiponologist -> jan pi toki pona (Toki Pona speaker), or jan sona pi toki pona(Toki Pona teacher/specialist)But then again, you'll use "jan pi toki pona" most often, unless you want toemphasize great knowledge of the language.
zlaod

Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by zlaod »

Thanks all! I'll try to learn the language before our symposium tomorrow.(Otherwise I'll just make stuff up.)Here in Taiwan, most people are what you would call Daoists. I'll be sure tomention the connection.What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, "jan_sewe" <serge.g@...> wrote:>> --- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@> wrote:> >> > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Rodrigo PORTELA SÁNCHEZ> > <philoglot@> wrote:> > > 2009/5/19 zlaod <zlaod@>:> > >> How do you say "Tokiponology" in Toki Pona?> > >> > > sona pi toki pona. ni li pona tawa mi. sina pilin ala pilin ante?> >> > ni li pona. ken la, "nasin sona pi toki pona" li pona kin.> >> > --> > Jim Henry> > http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/> >> I like "nasin sona pi toki pona" (although it seems to suggest that tp's a wayto know things...). But in general, words in -gy begin with sona:>> Tokiponology -> sona pi toki pona>> However this is a concept, and Toki Pona doesn't like them very much. Most ofthe time you'll just be saying "toki pona" if you mean the language, or "sonapona" if you mean the (Taoist) underlying philosophy.>> Tokiponologist -> jan pi toki pona (Toki Pona speaker), or jan sona pi tokipona (Toki Pona teacher/specialist)>> But then again, you'll use "jan pi toki pona" most often, unless you want toemphasize great knowledge of the language.>
Jim Henry

Re: Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by Jim Henry »

On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:56 AM, zlaod <zlaod@yahoo.com> wrote:> What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.Several of the people on this list use the word "concept"in ways that seem odd to me -- not sure if they'renot native speakers of English, or speakers ofdialects other than mine. I would tend to usethe word "abstraction" in most of the contextswhere e.g. jan_sewe was using "concept" inrecent posts. To me "conceptual thought"is a pleonasm, like "archaic old things" or"mnemonic memory" or "pulmonary lungs"."conceptual" is the adjective form of "concept"which is a fancy word for "a thought", not necessarilyan abstract thought, which is the kind of thoughtthat I think jan_sewe and some other toki ponaspeakers think that toki pona discourages -- notsure if I agree with them there, either. It seemsto me that e.g. "soweli" is more of an an abstractionthan concrete terms in other languages like "dog","kinkajou", "marmoset" etc.; "pipi" more abstractthan "bee", "junebug", "firefly", etc. (On the otherhand "soweli" and "pipi" are less exact and technicalterms than their closest equivalents in English,"mammal" and "insect" -- the latter have connectionsto scientific ideas about evolution and taxonomythat aren't connoted by the toki pona terms.)---Jim Henryhttp://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
jan_sewe

Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by jan_sewe »

--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@...> wrote:>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:56 AM, zlaod <zlaod@...> wrote:>> > What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.>> Several of the people on this list use the word "concept"> in ways that seem odd to me -- not sure if they're> not native speakers of English, or speakers of> dialects other than mine. I would tend to use> the word "abstraction" in most of the contexts> where e.g. jan_sewe was using "concept" in> recent posts. To me "conceptual thought"> is a pleonasm, like "archaic old things" or> "mnemonic memory" or "pulmonary lungs".> "conceptual" is the adjective form of "concept"> which is a fancy word for "a thought", not necessarily> an abstract thought, which is the kind of thought> that I think jan_sewe and some other toki pona> speakers think that toki pona discourages -- not> sure if I agree with them there, either. It seems> to me that e.g. "soweli" is more of an an abstraction> than concrete terms in other languages like "dog",> "kinkajou", "marmoset" etc.; "pipi" more abstract> than "bee", "junebug", "firefly", etc. (On the other> hand "soweli" and "pipi" are less exact and technical> terms than their closest equivalents in English,> "mammal" and "insect" -- the latter have connections> to scientific ideas about evolution and taxonomy> that aren't connoted by the toki pona terms.)>> ---> Jim Henry> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/>I don't know actually if my idea of a concept is the same as yours. Each TokiPona word is a concept in itself, but it's often difficult to understand what aToki Poka speaker means whenever he uses one of them, or a combination of them.Whenever you say soweli - or soweli pona - in general you mean 'cat', 'dog','horse', but rarely 'mammal'!Maybe Sonja has conceptualised the notion of mammal by means of soweli, but TokiPona speakers aren't being conceptual whenever they use it! And you can't justsay 'sona pi toki pona' and hope your reader will understand 'tokiponology', aword that doesn't even exist in English...But sometimes I do wonder if Sonja really invented Toki Pona alone: it lookslike she might have benefited from conversations with a few guys like you... :)
John E Clifford

Re: Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?

Post by John E Clifford »

Sorry to dip m professional oar in here, but ... . So the meaning of each tpword is a concept, if you will. But it is an vague concept, that is, itboundaries are not sharply demarcated, there are many gray areas (think of'soweli' and 'kala' and where what we call 'whales' or 'dolphins' or 'porpoises'go -- and this can be repeated with almost any two concepts that belong to thesame broad (very broad) field). Sonja has not conceptualized mammals with'soweli' although a lot of things she calls 'soweli' are in fact what we call'mammals' -- and maybe some aren't (and maybe conversely as well). Whatever canbe said about Sapir-Whorf (though that is damned little tthat is coherent) it iscertainly true that each language (even down to temporally delimited idiolects)slices up reality in different ways. My English uses a finer grid that tp, buta much thicker one than a biologist, when talking about animals (and don't getme started on colors, where I can't even agree at level one with half the people in the world). Now, ofcourse, when I talk tp I may not get rid of my English conceptualization and so,when I say 'soweli' I mean in one case 'cat', in another 'dog' and so on. Or Imay try to recreate something like my English concept in tp by creating acompound, which may or may not work to reduce the referent class of theexpression to something like the one I have in mind. Or, as I become a bettertper, I may actually use the tp concept and not any longer worry about thedifferences between cats and dogs, if they don't matter for my narrative. Ifthey do, then I have to put the relevant stuff in -- which may or may not bearsome relation to the differences between what I can 'cat' and 'dog' in English. In short, a tper ought to mean a soweli when he says 'soweli' and we ought tounderstand it as such. If we look around and can't tell which one he is talkingabout (assuming he is talking about the critters around) then he may have failed to communicate -- or may beonto something different altogether. I am not sure whether I would come up with'tokiponology' as English for 'sona pi toki pona' (or even 'nasin sona pi tokipona'), but it is pretty clear a pretty good shot.________________________________From: jan_sewe <serge.g@laposte.net>To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:50:59 PMSubject: [tokipona] Re: How to say "Tokiponology"?--- In tokipona@yahoogroup s.com, Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@ ...> wrote:>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:56 AM, zlaod <zlaod@...> wrote:>> > What--conceptual thought is bad? Oh well, I mostly work on autopilot anyway.>> Several of the people on this list use the word "concept"> in ways that seem odd to me -- not sure if they're> not native speakers of English, or speakers of> dialects other than mine. I would tend to use> the word "abstraction" in most of the contexts> where e.g. jan_sewe was using "concept" in> recent posts. To me "conceptual thought"> is a pleonasm, like "archaic old things" or> "mnemonic memory" or "pulmonary lungs".> "conceptual" is the adjective form of "concept"> which is a fancy word for "a thought", not necessarily> an abstract thought, which is the kind of thought> that I think jan_sewe and some other toki pona> speakers think that toki pona discourages -- not> sure if I agree with them there, either. It seems> to me that e.g. "soweli" is more of an an abstraction> than concrete terms in other languages like "dog",> "kinkajou", "marmoset" etc.; "pipi" more abstract> than "bee", "junebug", "firefly", etc. (On the other> hand "soweli" and "pipi" are less exact and technical> terms than their closest equivalents in English,> "mammal" and "insect" -- the latter have connections> to scientific ideas about evolution and taxonomy> that aren't connoted by the toki pona terms.)>> ---> Jim Henry> http://www.pobox. com/~jimhenry/>I don't know actually if my idea of a concept is the same as yours. Each TokiPona word is a concept in itself, but it's often difficult to understand what aToki Poka speaker means whenever he uses one of them, or a combination of them.Whenever you say soweli - or soweli pona - in general you mean 'cat', 'dog','horse', but rarely 'mammal'!Maybe Sonja has conceptualised the notion of mammal by means of soweli, but TokiPona speakers aren't being conceptual whenever they use it! And you can't justsay 'sona pi toki pona' and hope your reader will understand 'tokiponology' , aword that doesn't even exist in English...But sometimes I do wonder if Sonja really invented Toki Pona alone: it lookslike she might have benefited from conversations with a few guys like you... :)[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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