nasin toki pi toki pona

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janKipo
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janKipo » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:12 pm

Well, they tend to be much more ambiguous than single 'pi's and no 'pi' at all, but 'illogical" is pretty hard to pin down. And, as noted, since 'pi' comes from so many sources, nesting takes on many meanings, some of them quite logical in context, though it might be better to avoid them but taking other routes.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janKipo » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:40 pm

Neglected to look at Lope's new section on 'pi'. Have now done so. Aside from the usual stuff about noun+adj, followed directly by cases of adj+adv, it was a bit better than the usual chat. The only obviously wrong case was saying 'jan pi wawa pi pona mute' was wrong. The problem is, of course, that it does not allow that 'pi pona mute' is an modifier (adj or adv) and so can modify 'wawa', meaning, in turn that the 'pi' in 'pi wawa' is, in fact followed by two words. That is, the exposition assumes (doesn't demonstrate) that two 'pi's in a single phrase are parallel, not nested. That is, the assumption is that what was intended was just 'jan wawa pi pona mute' (never mind that this is already illegitimate according to the beginning of the section), with, as claimed, the 'pi' illegitimate because followed (in the construction) by only one word, 'wawa'.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:54 pm

jan_Lope wrote:I have some notes about recursions in my lessons already. One of them is in the chapter "Compound Nouns with pi". I hope my notes make clear that nested pi phrases are illogical.


You could make it more clear if you say that "kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona." read as "the group of England music" is wrong.

Such a rule makes sense. Probably we won't find any example that contradicts this observation. If someone tries to use "pi" recursively (I may have done it already...) I would classify it as "toki ike" = "complicated language".
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

janKipo
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janKipo » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:05 pm

Well, again, it is ambiguous, which is bad, but both reading are perfectly fine otherwise. A prepositional phrase might help some, but could be just as confusing.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby jan_Lope » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:20 am

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:You could make it more clear if you say that "kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona." read as "the group of England music" is wrong.


Do you mean "kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona." = "the group of England music" is wrong?

Both pi phrases belong to kulupu because recursions are illogical in Toki Pona. I mean the translation of this sentence is right. Maybe it is better to say in two sentences.
pona!
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:03 am

jan_Lope wrote:Do you mean "kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona." = "the group of England music" is wrong?

Both pi phrases belong to kulupu because recursions are illogical in Toki Pona. I mean the translation of this sentence is right. Maybe it is better to say in two sentences.


Yes, I mean the reading "the group of England music" is wrong if you avoid recursion.

Your observation about (no) recursion in Toki Pona would be easier to understand if you depict the reading *with* recursion, too. (Like "crazy restroom" vs. "bar".)
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janKipo » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:54 am

recursion is not the same as using 'pi', so the diferent between 'tomo telo nasa' and 'tomo pi telo nasa' is not recursion. recursion, as Lope seems to mean it, is the difference between (kulupu (pi kalama musi)) (pi ma Inli) and kulupu (pi kalama musi (pi ma Inli)), which are indistinguishable in tp (without commas), like "the English music group" in English. It can mean "The music group of England" or "The group of English music". That is, of course, an argument against recursion (without commas) or, equally, against parallel 'pi's.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby jan_Lope » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:17 pm

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
jan_Lope wrote:Do you mean "kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona." = "the group of England music" is wrong?

Both pi phrases belong to kulupu because recursions are illogical in Toki Pona. I mean the translation of this sentence is right. Maybe it is better to say in two sentences.


Yes, I mean the reading "the group of England music" is wrong if you avoid recursion.

Your observation about (no) recursion in Toki Pona would be easier to understand if you depict the reading *with* recursion, too. (Like "crazy restroom" vs. "bar".)


In this example the second pi phrase is not nested in the first pi phrase. The second pi phrase start after the end of the first pi phrase. Maybe this example is not clear. But you can change the order of pi phrases and get the same meaning:

kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona. The English rock band is good.
kulupu pi ma Inli pi kalama musi li pona. The English rock band is good.

You can do this similar with phrases of the other separators (li, e ,la) also:

ona li moku li pona. = ona li pona li moku.
mi moku e moku e telo. = mi moku e telo e moku.
ken la tenpo kama la mi tawa. = tenpo kama la ken la mi tawa.

The meaning is the same. Maybe the emphasis is little different. With recursion the meaning change because of the hierarchy in a nested structure. But we don't have this in Toki Pona. Fortunately all separators in Toki Pona works in the same way.
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janKipo » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:33 pm

Well, I am not sure that 'pi' is a separator in the same way as the others listed are. But then, I allow recursion (or at least nested 'pi' expressions -- I'm not sure that is strictly recursion).
'ken la tenpo pin la S' is not generally convertible with 'tenpo pini la ken la S' Given that Stephen Douglas ran for President of the US but lost, it was possible that he become President, but it is not now possible that he was President. And similarly for other modal cases.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:40 pm

jan_Lope wrote:
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
jan_Lope wrote:Do you mean "kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona." = "the group of England music" is wrong?

Both pi phrases belong to kulupu because recursions are illogical in Toki Pona. I mean the translation of this sentence is right. Maybe it is better to say in two sentences.


Yes, I mean the reading "the group of England music" is wrong if you avoid recursion.

Your observation about (no) recursion in Toki Pona would be easier to understand if you depict the reading *with* recursion, too. (Like "crazy restroom" vs. "bar".)


In this example the second pi phrase is not nested in the first pi phrase. The second pi phrase start after the end of the first pi phrase. Maybe this example is not clear. But you can change the order of pi phrases and get the same meaning:

kulupu pi kalama musi pi ma Inli li pona. The English rock band is good.
kulupu pi ma Inli pi kalama musi li pona. The English rock band is good.

You can do this similar with phrases of the other separators (li, e ,la) also:

ona li moku li pona. = ona li pona li moku.
mi moku e moku e telo. = mi moku e telo e moku.
ken la tenpo kama la mi tawa. = tenpo kama la ken la mi tawa.

The meaning is the same. Maybe the emphasis is little different. With recursion the meaning change because of the hierarchy in a nested structure. But we don't have this in Toki Pona. Fortunately all separators in Toki Pona works in the same way.


Changing the order of pi phrases is a good means for illustrating the point. :) And I would contrast these variants with the (bad) recursion-reading:

- The Englandian music band is good.
- The musical England band is good.

In general, btw, it would be interesting to see which of your explanations are your own observations and which ones are quotations.

I agree about pi, li, e. But la differs. Strange. Never noticed.

jan Tepan
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mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.


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