nasin toki pi toki pona

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janTepanNetaPelin
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nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:02 pm

jan pi toki pona o!

mi sitelen e lipu "nasin toki pi toki pona". sina ken lukin e ona lon ni:

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

jan Tepan
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

janSilipu
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janSilipu » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:53 pm

Li. True but need first to say connects subject and predicate and also that it disappears only when the two words are all alone as subject.

Pi. True but you need to indicate that it only for modifiers, and tha it only arises when a pair or more of words form a unit of modification.  That is, 'toki pi pona pimute' wouldnot have arisen in the first Place to be corrected.  I have to admit your way is possible but seems more complex.
False. Prep phrases as modifiers take 'pi'.  your example is a sentential modifier, which suggests that you don't have the basic tp sentence structure firmly in hand. 

True but you nowhere say, only show, that 'e' introduces the direct object.  
Omission of DO is universal, not just with 'ijo'. (with 'moku' the usual reconstructed missing DO  is, in fact, 'moku'). 
Some of your terms for parts of speech are hard to figure out and not very informative.  To be sure adjectives come after nouns, but you haven't said that yet nor what function they perform there.  Nor are nouns smaller than verbs, nor less important, etc.  
But the point about PPs after and not before DO is a good one.
It's not clear ( see elsewhere) that 'sina o kama' is an imperative, and, if it is, then the 'sina' is already separated from the imperative: 'sina o,  o kama'.  In any case, the vocative has a separate source from the optative/ imperative (it ispriorto one and unrelated tithe other).
The 'sina o Jo' source for 'tawa pona'  is extremely unlikely compared to at least two others. 

True,  but when -- and why -- can you use 'en'?  And 'anu'?  Actually you ca use 'en' between verbs and between direct objects; it's just a different "and".  But youcan't use it between sentences.  
[sorry battery dying]

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:09 pm

"li", "e": I don't know yet how to say "subject", "predicate" and "object" in Toki Pona. (I must admit I wasn't focussing on it.) I should add it as soon as I found translations for them.

I'll emphasize on "mi" and "sina" (all alone as subject)

"pi": You identify my example with terms that you suppose I don't understand. For safety's sake, can you please quote the example so we can be sure we're talking about the same example?

"moku": I'm trying to keep it simple. The "moku" = "ijo moku" pattern happens more often.

"ijo": "ijo" is already general/universal. But I will add that it can be also something more specific, like "ijo moku", perhaps.

I must cross-link those terms so that they are more self-explanatory across the document.

For me, verbs are more important than nouns (so yes, "suli" was meant to mean "important"). But that may not be enough. Surely it would be easier to think about a better name when I will have come up with a translation for "predicate".

"o": What do you mean "see elsewhere"? Sorry, I don't understand the entire paragraph... "sina o kama" is "sina o kama". I don't think it's necessary to distinguish between optative and imperative in Toki Pona, especially since 'pu' mentions only "vocative/imperative" in the dictionary. Which other two sources for "tawa pona" are there? (I didn't know of any until now.)

You can use "en" and "anu" everywhere you can use particles, except in "li"- and "e"-clauses. Am I wrong? Then I wouldn't have to mention them at all, I guess.

Thanks for the constructive feed-back.
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:09 pm

Now that I think of it: I wouldn't reinvent the wheel. A predicate is a "kulupu nimi lili pi nimi ilo 'li'" or a "li"-phrase. Therefore, it would be superfluous to state that "li" is at the beginning of a predicate in order to explain what "li" is. This can be explained in the dictionary.
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

janSilipu
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janSilipu » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:23 pm

Well, strictly is just before the predicate not at it's beginning (it's that kind of fussiness that gives grammarians a bad name). And, of course, the is no ( visible) 'li' with 'mi' and 'sina'. I suppose these are kulupu nimi lili because sentences are suli. So, conditionals are 'pi nimi 'la''.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby jan_Lope » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:41 am

jan TepanNetaPelin o toki!

this is a very interesting project.

At first glance I 've found this: pi is for building complex nouns. pi is after a noun + optional adjectives. The first word after pi is a noun or a pronoun followed by at least one word (adjectiv or pronoun). pi doesn't replace a preposition.

Grüsse aus Berlin nach Berlin :-)
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janSilipu » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:06 am

well, Lope starts fine, but goes off with "the first word after 'pi' is a noun", which your example shows to be incorrect: it can equally well be an adjective, verb, adverb or preposition. 'pi' just marks the beginning of a modifier that is more that one word long. but he ends right.

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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby jan_Lope » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:56 am

jan Silupu o, toki!

'pi' just marks the beginning of a modifier ...


What is a modifier? If is a noun then you are right. But after pi can't be an adjective, an adverb or a preposition.

The official Toki Pona book by Sonja (2014) page 44:
"The particle pi is used to divide a second noun group that describes the first noun group."

Pijes lessons:
"pi separates a noun from another noun that has an adjective."
http://tokipona.net/tp/janpije/okamasona11.php

Russian Toki Pona lessons (Last modified: 18:09, 18 ноября 2015‎)
https://ru.wikibooks.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0 ... D%D0%B0/pi
Проблема решена. То есть pi выполняет функцию разделителя между существительным и другим существительным, у которого имеются прилагательные.
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent, rude spamming.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:21 am

janSilipu wrote:Well, strictly is just before the predicate not at it's beginning (it's that kind of fussiness that gives grammarians a bad name). And, of course, the is no ( visible) 'li' with 'mi' and 'sina'. I suppose these are kulupu nimi lili because sentences are suli. So, conditionals are 'pi nimi 'la''.


Some key words are missing in your answer. But I think we can keep the fussiness.
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:24 am

jan_Lope wrote:jan TepanNetaPelin o toki!

this is a very interesting project.

At first glance I 've found this: pi is for building complex nouns. pi is after a noun + optional adjectives. The first word after pi is a noun or a pronoun followed by at least one word (adjectiv or pronoun). pi doesn't replace a preposition.

Grüsse aus Berlin nach Berlin :-)


jan Lopa o,

Where did you find it? Do you agree? (I do.)

Grüße zurück!
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona


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