nasin toki pi toki pona

Toki Pona news: new website, upcoming book, announcements from the language's creator
Tokiponaj novaĵoj: nova TTT-ejo, venonta libro, aperonta libro, anoncoj de la kreinto de la lingvo
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jan_Lope
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by jan_Lope »

Where did you find it? Do you agree? (I do.)
I agree with the lessons. Please see my last comment.

kun amika saluto
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.
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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by janTepanNetaPelin »

jan_Lope wrote: I agree with the lessons. Please see my last comment.
kun amika saluto
Good comment of yours. I will look up page 44 of Sonja's book when I'm home again.

The trouble with Toki Pona slang is that its speakers not only want to use it and divide Toki Pona: They also propagate that everyone who's using Toki Pona in the way it's described in the pu is wrong or even worse: They act as if it never existed. Ike!

Amike
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.
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jan_Lope
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by jan_Lope »

The trouble with Toki Pona slang is that its speakers not only want to use it and divide Toki Pona: They also propagate that everyone who's using Toki Pona in the way it's described in the pu is wrong or even worse: They act as if it never existed. Ike!
jan TepanNetaPelin o, toki!

I agree with you. It is similar with Esperanto and Ido. But Ido as a fork of Esperanto optained the new name "Ido" and Ido speaker don't force you to speak Esperanto like Ido. But preacher of a Toki Pona slang don't have a new name for a fork and force you to use this slang. You can see it here in this forum :-(

BTW: I've updated the lessons of my website. Here is the chapter "Compound Nouns with pi":

http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona ... 0000000000
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.
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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by janTepanNetaPelin »

jan_Lope wrote:jan TepanNetaPelin o, toki!

I agree with you. It is similar with Esperanto and Ido. But Ido as a fork of Esperanto optained the new name "Ido" and Ido speaker don't force you to speak Esperanto like Ido. But preacher of a Toki Pona slang don't have a new name for a fork and force you to use this slang. You can see it here in this forum :-(

BTW: I've updated the lessons of my website. Here is the chapter "Compound Nouns with pi":

http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona ... 0000000000
jan Lope o,

I tried to give this Tokiponido a name: "toki pona pi taso pu". (Yes, with "pi". ;) ) Also "toki pona pi pu ala" or "toki pona namako" or simply "toki ike" could work, too.

Imagine someone with a basic knowledge of Esperanto would enter an Esperanto forum and people would preach Ido. Neither Esperanto nor Ido would have a chance. I once tried to learn Toki Pona (more than 5 years ago) and I couldn't match the lessons with how some people use Toki Pona as if it were the real thing. Only this time I tried to learn Toki Pona I realized the whole madness of the situation. How long has this been going on?

Your description of "pi" seems to match my understanding of it. Great! :)
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by janKipo »

Sorry about the post. I have fixed the spotty keyoard and will actually do some editing before I press "Send". What I meant to say was "'li' is strictly just before the predicate not at its beginning. And, of course, there is no (visible) 'li' with 'mi' and 'sina'. I suppose that phrases are kulupu nimi lili because sentences are suli. So conditionals are just 'kulupu nimi pi nimi 'la'" I would probably just use 'kulupu nimi' throughout and distinguish sentence, where needed, as 'kulupu nimi pini' "completed phrases".
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by janKipo »

I take back what I said about Lope starting out OK, since what precedes 'pi' does not have to be a noun: 'mi toki pi pona mute kepeken toki pona' 'ni li pona pi lili mute', and so on.

"What is a modifier?" a modifier is a word or phrase that attaches to another word or phrase and precides its meaning. 'pona' and 'mute' are common modifiers and in 'pona mute', 'mute' serves to narrow the scope of 'pona' to cover only the more extreme cases of goodness. 'pona', and thus 'pona mute' are modifiers and the latter, as a unit, modifies 'jan' in 'jan pi pona mute' to restrict the reference to very good people, from all or any people. But not all modifiers are are of the word class "modifier" (adjective/adverb), nouns can be modifiers: 'jan ma' "countryman" and verbs : 'jan alasa', "hunter" and prepositions 'jan tawa' "traveler" and so on. And modifiers can modify words or phrases from any class, as the examples above show. Since all these cases are clearly good tp (they're all from one textbook or another), you have two choices: 1) You say (as prescriptivist actually do) that whatever occurs after 'pi' is actually a noun (not, perhaps, a native noun, but a dba noun) so that 'jan pi pona mute' doesn't mean (directly at least) "a very good person" but rather "a person of much goodness". Since this is rather vague, you then have to clarify that it means "a very good person", which is where everyone else got directly. Or 2) you scrap this formulation of the rule and take a more neutral one, eventually, I think, getting to "'pi' introduces a modifier of more than one word". You might then want to go on to discuss the ways that such modifiers might arise, one of which (the original use of 'pi', apparently) is as possessives with, typically, proper names: 'soweli pi jan San', "John's dog" (This was actually ultimately merely a special case of the general rule of shifting predicates over to internal modifiers, since ''pi jan San' was once an acceptable predicate. Indeed, even 'pi mi' was once -- and still is in Pije.) To encourage this move, I note yet again (as I have since 2005 or so) that on the the same page or the next after as the rule, the textbook gives at least one obvious counter example -- usually 'jan pi pona mute' or something just like it ('jan pi alasa waso' come later).
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by jan_Lope »

I tried to give this Tokiponido a name:
I suggest "toki mu, mu pi mu ,pi, mu mute".
Imagine someone with a basic knowledge of Esperanto would enter an Esperanto forum and people would preach Ido. Neither Esperanto nor Ido would have a chance. I once tried to learn Toki Pona (more than 5 years ago) and I couldn't match the lessons with how some people use Toki Pona as if it were the real thing. Only this time I tried to learn Toki Pona I realized the whole madness of the situation. How long has this been going on?
I don't know. But I've heard several complaints about this.
Your description of "pi" seems to match my understanding of it. Great! :)
I use facts and logic to write this.
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by janKipo »

So much for the science; now for the ad hominem.
1. Calling tp as it is actually used "slang" is pejorative and dismisses the efforts of those who actually incorporate the language into a part of their life. I should say "some of those who" since there are probably many users -- including you and Sonja and Pije -- who use it but not in ways that get on the public record, or, at least, on public recods I have been able to find (and I do look fairly regularly). At its worst, it is a legitimate dialect of tp; on the available evidence, it is virtually all the tp there is, outside to textbooks.

2) Myself aside, for the moment, no users of tp are trying to force anybody to do anything. To be sure, over the last decade, the community has developed solutions to problems that arose. These solutions got worked out in discussions in the total absence of any guidance from the savants, Sonja and Pije, despite frequent direct appeals for help. Having found these solution, we tend to stick with them and to ignore different solutions that wander down from on high, often solution that we have already considered and rejected for good reasons. We also are a tad resentful that these ukases seem so unaware of what is going on in the language that there is no attempt to reconcile with the developed standard. We are more than willing to follow Sonja, at least (Pije is a little too old fashioned), but want to know why the changes from our standard; what are the virtues of the pu position that we missed?

3) Me personally. I read everything publically available in tp that I can find. I try to extract what are the practices of the best writers (at least ones who have mastered the basics of 'li' and 'e' and 'pi'). Then, when someone asks how to do something, I tell them what I take to be such practices. I try to remember when pu or Pije differs and to note that fact, but then to add that the community does not agree and is likely to comment on variants, although I have gotten quite tolerant of dialect difference ('e' with 'kepeken', for example), merely noting it is a dialect difference. I don't say pu or even Pije is wrong, and I certainly don't ignore them -- though I do make disparaging remarks about them sometimes (e.g., about the stupid 'pi' rule -- but pointing out stupidity seems appropriate). Of course, I don't always succeed in my efforts. Sorry 'bout that.

The community is not trying to split tp, it is just developing it as it is needed. Like any living language, tp changes over time and conlang generally change more rapidly (and more consciously) than natural languages, so tp today is probably as different from the tp of 2005 as English today is from English of 1915, say (vocabulary aside). I try to tell people coming in with a 2005 textbook (whatever its publication date may be) what the situation is now. The user can do what they will -- and do.

Notice, this is not tp without pu, since it incorporates several things from pu that were not in earlier versions (and are still not in even "revised" Pije) and it is not opposed to pu. After all, Sonja clearly says that 'pu' is how she uses tp and, while that is certainly prestigious,it is clearly not binding on anyone else. My comments are -- except for the purely factual ones -- even less so.

As i have said, prescriptivist, who hold a language to a fixed form which cannot be allowed to change, even if the form is internally inconsistent and doesn't even match the rulers' rules, are at constant war with descriptivists, who look to see what is going on -- and maybe even participate in it -- and try their best to describe the current state (subject to change fairly quickly) and advise others what is now going on. The prescriptivist has the easier job, of coure, since they never have to look at the actual language except to deplore how it has fallen away from pristine purity. Unfortunately, really following the prescriptions kills the language as a living system. Happily, users of the language ignore them and use the language. "But it is not really tp any more" the precriptivist says, to which the descriptivist replies, "Yes it is. The prescriptions just aren't tp any more" Since they are obviously talking past eachother, no solution is available. My personal solution is to keep and mine the prescriptions to study the history of tp and, perhap, get some better understanding of the present state from that. But follow them literally, no way!
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by janKipo »

Ad hominem aside, the one factual claim in this last post is patently false. If you used facts and logic, your examples would not contradict your rule, as they do (thank God!, what a mess tp would have with just that 'pi' rule).
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Re: nasin toki pi toki pona

Post by janTepanNetaPelin »

janKipo wrote:Sorry about the post. I have fixed the spotty keyoard and will actually do some editing before I press "Send". What I meant to say was "'li' is strictly just before the predicate not at its beginning. And, of course, there is no (visible) 'li' with 'mi' and 'sina'. I suppose that phrases are kulupu nimi lili because sentences are suli. So conditionals are just 'kulupu nimi pi nimi 'la'" I would probably just use 'kulupu nimi' throughout and distinguish sentence, where needed, as 'kulupu nimi pini' "completed phrases".
jan Kipo o / jan Silipu o,

do you have any other sockpuppets in this forum we should know of?
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.
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