I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons and I'm looking for good text examples

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janKipo
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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons an I'm looking for good text examples

Postby janKipo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:32 pm

I assume that, by "slang", you mean the language actually used, rather than the prescriptions of writers who do not use (or even read) the language. In those books you will not find a good number of rules that people use anyhow (and you will also find examples of the use of those rules, despite the book denying them). The rule is simply that 'pi' introduces a modifier of more than one word length. Thus, practically, phrase following 'pi' has to be analysed before the whole can incorporated into the analysis of the phrase in which the modifier occurs. Although this is not relevant to your linear grammar, such modifiers have a number of sources, most of which can be summed up as collapsed predicates, but that summary leaves out interesting details. The details, of which "a noun with one or more adjectives" is, admittedly, one, would make for interesting and informative lessons for using the language (though not of any use for a linear grammar). Happily, folks just go on using this rule (without being aware of it, for the most part), and ignoring (or never being exposed to) the official line.

jan_Lope
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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons an I'm looking for good text examples

Postby jan_Lope » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:25 am

I assume that, by "slang", you mean the language actually used

No, I mean your slang! You predicate that everybody use Toki Pona in according to your slang. I've showed you several examples that prove the contrary. But you repeat and repeat your argue everytime in this way: These people have no knowledge (even Sonja and Pije). And only you know the right way. It is so silly!

You spam this forum with your "knowledge". I think that's why Sonja, Pije and many others are very seldom here and you are nearly alone in this forum. Please think about this.
pona!
jan Lope
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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janKipo
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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons an I'm looking for good text examples

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:55 am

Well, that is an interesting point of view, but does not seem to be reality based. I read just about everything publicly available in tp and try to accurately extract the rules actually in use. You offer me only examples from textbooks or copybooks from courses in opposition. Can you pull up something from a seasoned (i.e., not just fresh out of Pije's lessons) tp user that goes against my general point? Notice, too, that I regularly allow the existence of several tp dialects, although I do note that their peculiarities are not required. Note also that even next to your selected example there are cases which back up my position on central issues, like the role of 'pi'. I don't always (to put it mildly) get the interpretation of actual tp right, but I try to correct what I say when the error is pointed out (see the last weeks run on Facebook -- avoiding which puts you at a severe disadvantage in all this). And I do overgeneralize rules, partly to test them, partly to see where things seem to be going. So, if you catch me at that, fair enough; I will listen to you objections. But on the core, you have to come up with something better than an out-of-date textbook to convince me. Some text from last week would be nice (and not something fadged up to make a point). The prescriptivist/descriptivist battle in language is as old as the study of languages, and from each point of view the other is simply wrong. But, of course, they simply talk past one another, since the evidence for one ("the book says so") is irrelevant to the other ("usage is thus"). We are on different quests and I apologize for trying to get you to support mine. But, at least in the case of vocabulary, I think keeping up to date (you don't even have Sonja in) is probably a good idea.

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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons an I'm looking for good text examples

Postby jan_Lope » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:34 am

But on the core, you have to come up with something better than an out-of-date textbook to convince me.


I do not want to convince you. Keep your slang and feel happy. But please don't try to convince me with mostly useless comments.
pona!
jan Lope
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons an I'm looking for good text examples

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:11 pm

At the risk of offending you further by breaking into your shell and telling you what is actually happening in tp, here are some additional notes for your dictionary.

I skip over things like use with prepositions and 'kama', which get special sections in Pije, but generally offer no surprises,

ilo vt work on with tools, machine, etc.

jaki adj obscene (Sonja)
n feces (short for 'ko jaki')

jelo (e....) color/turn yellow

jo n possessions, content

kalama adj noisy

I take it that the first item given is the primary one. I think some of those are ill-chosen, since they make the other entries seem random rather than natural products of the changing roles. But both that plan and the best choices are controversial, so I pass over that (except to say that 'kama' seems particularly muddled).

Do you really have a case of 'kepeken' as a modal? I don't nor can I find one in the textbooks. (I'm also unsure what it might mean, but that is another matter; the suggested 'kepeken pali' = “uses to do” doesn't help at all.)
Is the vi of 'kepepken' just the prepositional phrase as predicate, or are trhere cases of 'li kepeken' without a following prepositional object?

kin la however and similar contrastive as well as additive uses after words. It is probably better to stick with the old definitions here (though supplementing with explanations) Calling it an adjective or an adverb etc. misses the fact that it can occur after almost any word in a sentence, with either force (context and all). 'Mi wile tawa kin [li tan ala] tomo' [Sonja has replaced 'kin' with 'a' – good luck to her with that]

kipisi n section, fragment, slice, etc.

kon adj pertaining to air, e.g. toma tawa kon “airplane”
vi breathe

kulupu vt assemble, call together, convene

kute la I hear that [mark of hearsay information, on dit]

lape vt render unconscious, knock out
adj in sleep e.g. sitelen lape “dreams”

len n network (espec the internet) [I'm not fond of this but it is very widespread]

lipu n book (fr. 'lipu mute'), webpage, blog, list, etc. [yeah, I know hey don't bend, but ...]

lon is a preposition and the rest is addition, but, as a preposition, it has no “be” in its definition.

luka “tactile”

lukin “look for” is not a preverb meaning (doesn't take a verb)

mani n large domestic animal (that comes in herds) (Sonja, the original meaning).

namako adj superfluous [Sonja collapses to 'sin']

'nanpa' probably deserves a note about its role (adj?) in forming ordinal numbers

'ni' might deserve a note to the effect that, unlike 'ona', it refers to a whole sentence, not just a single noun phrase.

nimi vt to name (either 'li nimi 'X' e ...' or 'nimi e... kepeken nimi 'X'')

noka adv on foot (e.g. tawa noka “walk”)

'o' as subject also delete 'li' (like 'mi', 'sina')
the ...o... cases are problematic, since there seem to be two things going on. One is an optative (or some other subjunctive free sentence: hortative, etc.), where 'o' replaces 'li' after a normal sentence (formerly 'o … li …' ) and the other where the 'o' of a vocative has fused with the 'o' of an imperative, that is '...o, o ….'. That muddle needs straightening out.

oko Sonja has dropped this in favor of 'sike lukin', I think.

olin e object must be a person

ona. I don't suppose it does any good to note that this is strictly anaphoric and should not be used without an antecedent (I don't so it myself in examples). But the it is better to use a noun at the beginning, rather than 'ona' – for clarity, if nothing else.

open modal begin, start

palisa vt poke, prod, stab (where did you get the “sexually arouse”?)

pan vt sow, disseminate, disperse, spread out

pana vt transmit, etc. (really “cause”?)
adj radioactive, contagious, etc.

[I'll pass over 'pi' this time, in despair, toki pi pona lili]

pilin seems to need a note that subj has to be sentient or we get 'ilo kipisi li pilin lete' (which is wrong in other ways as well)

pini n point
modal stop, finish, end, interrupt (man, do I miss 'pake')

poki vt can, box, etc. – put in a poki.

'pu' doesn't seem to lend itself to being a preverb
n the aforementioned book (I don't know whether this ever happens in tp, but it is virtually the nly use of the word in English)

sama vt equate, make equal/similar to

selo vt shelter, protect, guard (and so corresponding adjectives)

seme maybe a note that it turns up in every position in a sentence.

sewi God (Sonja) so adj about supernatural and divine.

sike vt seems to mean “rotate” as well and also “form into a circle”

sin adv again
vt repeat

sinpin adj vertical

supa adj horizontal
vt lay out, bury 'lon ni la jan li supa e Atulo. ona li lawa pini li lawa kama'

taso prep except 'ali taso jan San li kama'

telo vt melt, liquify

tomo vt build, construct, engineer
tame, domsticate

wile the items after “wish (for)” in vt don't belong there. (I think tis may have been a problem with other modals, but I sorta skimmed).

This is what I came up without doing any looking up. I could probably add more, but that probably goes beyond the scope of your project.

jan_Lope
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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons and I'm looking for good text examples

Postby jan_Lope » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:30 pm

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent, rude spamming.

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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons and I'm looking for good text examples

Postby jan_Lope » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:07 am

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent, rude spamming.

janKipo
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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons and I'm looking for good text examples

Postby janKipo » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:10 am

Good! Now for comma before modifiers added to phrases that end with 'pi' phrases. Hopefully there are not too many more easy cases.

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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons and I'm looking for good text examples

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:06 pm

jan_Lope wrote:Update: Commas before prepositions


o jan Lope,

interesting. Buth why is a comma recommended? In the sentence "mi moku, kepeken ilo moku" it seems you're putting two sentences together "mi moku" and "mi kepeken ilo moku." If this is your intention, you could simply say "mi moku li kepeken ilo moku." (i.e. without comma).
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

janKipo
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Re: I'm updating my Toki Pona lessons and I'm looking for good text examples

Postby janKipo » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 pm

The point (though Tepan won't read this) is to help prevent final PPs from flowing into DOs, the classic 'ona li pana e sitelen tawa mi'. Commas are not necessary in many cases, but having them always there is easier than spelling out all the cases of need or not.
The other clear cases where commas might help are in modifiers added to strings ending oi 'pi' phrases and in repeated 'la' phrases, in each case to separate those which affect only the immediately adjacent bit from those that cover the whole adjacent bit (the latter get the comma, I think -- as in the PP case).


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