Input on this translation

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jan pali pi jan Jesu
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:02 pm

Input on this translation

Postby jan pali pi jan Jesu » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:13 pm

toki! mi sin pi toki pona. mi sitelen sin e lipu. o pana sona sina tawa mi. kama pona! :)
Hello! I'm new to Toki Pona and i started to translate a paper into it, can ya'll tell me if i'm getting my ides across right? Thanks! :)

Toki Pona:

jan lawa wawa pona
pona li seme? li pana ala pana pilin pona tawa jan pona en pilin ike tawa jan ike? pana. mi toki e ni tan toki ni: sina olin mute e jan pona sina. jan moli li moli ike nasa e jan pona sina ni. ni kama la sina wile seme? sina wile ike kama tawa jan moli. sina toki e ni: “ona li wile jo pilin ike tan ona li moli e jan pona mi!” taso ni: tenpo mute la jan moli ni li pana pona mute tawa jan mute. ni kama la sina wile ala wile kama ike tawa jan moli? wile. wile ni li pona.

English:

The Just Judge
What is Justice? Pure retribution; pleasant reward for good, and painful reward for evil? I believe that if we all probe with matter, we will all concur on the given definition. Let me explain; if there was a man that brutishly murdered the person in your life that is closest to you, you would be ready to demand just retribution! Justice must be met, you would say. But what if that same person gave all of his profits to charity, all his time devoted to serving others always giving selflessly, would he still deserve the just retribution for murder? Yes.

janKipo
Posts: 2756
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Input on this translation

Postby janKipo » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:56 pm

Of the questions this piece raises, I will say only this about the broadest one: the views expressed seem more those of the Powers of the Present Age than of the person whose workman the author nominally is.
So, about the tp. The best way (and the first thing) to learn about tpis to get the rhythm of Subject li Verb e Object and then fill in the gaps, rather than proceeding word by word from left to right. This has gotten to 'li', but not generally to 'e', so verb phrases tend to run on into obscurity. And, to deal with it more or less simultaneously, the connections with the English often are too general to provide a good guide for getting things right. Line by line, then
'sin tawa toki pona' seems established, 'sin pi tp' would be an innovation in the language. I suppose "write anew" is part of translation, but 'ante e toki pi' is more clearly to the point, and 'tawa' ona' is missing. 'sona sina' is the object to 'pana' and so needs 'e'. "Welcome" (greeting not conventional reply to a thanks) seems odd here, where 'pona' "Thanks" seems called for.
"a good strong leader" misses both the notions of judge and justice in English. I am not sure how to do either of these and I suspect that the choice of expressions may be related to one's attitude toward the position set out in what follows, though the English title does allow that a judge can be unjust.
'pona' is awfully broad for "justice", which, while included, is probably not the first concept to come to mind. The conjoined verbs seem odd in questions though grammatically correct (the question mark is odd, however appropriate). 'pilin pona' (usual rant omitted) is the object (well, one of objects) of the 'pana's so needs 'e' in front (as noted). 'pilin ike' is the second, conjoined, object and so gets another 'e', rather than 'en'. (It is possible to argue that this is a case of mixed objects, not conjunction, but I think that case is thin, since the separations both hold in the same way as the whole.) There is, of course, nothing in the tp about retribution nor rewards (nor punishments). Not sure just what the floating 'pana' is doing.
The next English sentence is just not there in the tp, which is probably wise, since I am not sure how to do much of it ("definition", for example -- especially since none is given). But that leaves the 'ni' in the next tp sentence without an antecedent, or rather with a question, which may be worse. And so the explanation is launched directly, the 'toki' perhaps warning that more than one relevant sentence follows (a nice touch, that)
Why is the murderer a dead man from the start (I suppose this can mean "murderer" but 'jan pi moli jan' is safer)? 'ni kama la' means "before this", so presumably this should be 'ni li kama la' "If this happens". 'seme' is the object of 'wile' so needs 'e'.
I'm not sure how the next sentence works exactly (or doesn't, rather). It should be roughly 'sina wile e ni: ike li kama tawa jan [pi] moli [jan]' There are limits as to what you can pack into a tp verb phrase. Notice, in comparing with the English, there is nothing here about justice or even retribution, or being ready to demand anything, just flat desire to do harm (even revenge is only implicit here). Nothing about meeting justice either.
The quote is problematic. Who is 'ona'? each time -- there are no in context antecedents? Presumably (though not surely) 'pilin ike' is object of 'jo' and so need 'e'. But the same person who wants pain from someone (the speaker about the murderer?) also is the murderer. I don't see how to patch it and the English is off somewhere else altogether.
The story continues now with no indication that we are on a possible variant situation, a "what if". The 'ni' is out of place here. 'pona' is the object of 'pana and so ... . Much of the detail is lost here from the English.
'ni li kama la' 'ike' is the object of 'kama, ... .
'wile ni li pona' is not in the English and not in line with other parts of either version of the position.

jan pali pi jan Jesu
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:02 pm

Re: Input on this translation

Postby jan pali pi jan Jesu » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:56 am

Thanks for the critique i'm still new to more complex tp phrases, and am still trying to figure out how to clearly define nouns. :D


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