LIPU LI LON!

Toki Pona news: new website, upcoming book, announcements from the language's creator
Tokiponaj novaĵoj: nova TTT-ejo, venonta libro, aperonta libro, anoncoj de la kreinto de la lingvo
jan Lapale
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby jan Lapale » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:17 am

How do you know that she is?

jan_Anti
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby jan_Anti » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:23 am

I don't know jan Sonja, but judging by the texts included in the book, it looks like she's Bahá'í: "[...] a monotheistic religion emphasizing the spiritual unity of all humankind". After reading briefly about it on Wikipedia, it seems to be a spiritual movement that aims to unite the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Its founder, Bahá'u'lláh, claimed to be "[...] a messenger of God, and he used the term Manifestation of God to define the concept of an intermediary between humanity and God". In the spirit of political correctness I won't comment any further on this ...

I agree with Kuti that the choice of texts is unfortunate, to say the least. This book is really not the place for religious propagation. If anything, these kinds of texts should have been published in a separate book. I've ordered the book out of linguistic interest and will be taking those sections with a truckload of salt.

janKipo
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby janKipo » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:06 am

The tradition of religious texts in conlangs goes back at least to the Babel text in the '70s (and certainly much farther -- I expect Bible translations were very early in Esperanto) and the inevitable Daodejing translations for any new conlang. And, of course, for many natural languages, Bible texts are all that there is (Thank you, Wycliffe and SIL). So, it is not the nature of the items that is the problem, here. It is probably partly that there is so little other sorts of text, and partly the unfamiliar nature of some of the sources (or, apparently, the exact nature of those sources, though Bahai'i seems unfairly tarred here). The American conlang community inevitably sees a lot of Bible work and very little Koran, but there is more of the latter on an international level (though still not so much as the Bible or even some other religious texts).
Personally, I am more offended by the space wasted (my judgement, of course) on sign language (which is only remotely likely to be significant for tp) and "hieroglyphs" (for a fringe element of the conlang world -- my judgement again, of course), when interesting and even pressing issue in the language itself are unaddressed, even though they have been raised on various forums often over the years. Well, and 'pu', of course.

aikidave
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby aikidave » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:09 pm

I just ordered my Toki Pona text book last night (along with a tablet computer for my birthday!). I figure I have spent so much time with this language since 2009 and have been awaiting the book for such a long time, I may as well buy it, even if it is missing some of the answers to fundamental grammatical questions posted previously on the forums. I will skip the hieroglyphs and sign language sections, because I have enough trouble interpreting toki pona written in the Latin alphabet ! I hope all my favorite words are still there. Having an actual published book will hopefully give some more credence to the language.

janSilipu
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby janSilipu » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:04 pm

As for taking the texts with a lot of salt, the purpose of texts in a language book is not to get you to believe what is said but to allow you to see howit is said, a very different mater. I hope the fact that you find the teachings repellent will not interfere with your absorbing the grammar and the idioms. (I don't know that the teachings are repellent. The mere fact the have Islamic or Persian sources is not a guarantee.)

jan Lapale
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby jan Lapale » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:38 pm

I think that a religion who who does not think that it is superior to other religions is not bad. But if a religion thinks that it is the best in the world and the others are not good, then it's a threat for mankind. As a buddhist, odinist and shintoist, I think that there is not "ONE" religion better than the others. The best religion for you is the one you choose(or not if you're atheist)/ The worst religion for you is the one other people want you to follow against your will or by manipulating you.

janMato
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby janMato » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:35 pm

Bahá'í is also the only major religion whose institution supports everyone learning Esperanto. I think that may have played a role in jan Sonjas spiritual journey.

As for religious conlangs, I don't mind them, I noodled with the idea of what an Asatru (Viking revival religion) or Buddhist conlang might look like. But were one to hypothetically be published, it would be most successful if it were wearing it's religious leanings on it's sleeve from the outset.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the taoism in early tp was shallowly rooted. (i.e. no words in tp for taoist jargon, initial corpus wasn't very taoist, grammar has almost no small-c culture, i.e. the way Japanese has their social heirarchy embedded in their pronoun system)

Anyhow, chapters 1-4 and the glossary are under creative commons, so legal copies of those sections should appear on the internet reasonably soon for those who'd rather not buy the book.

Translation challenge!

lipu li lon noka soweli.

is what in English? (assume no other context is available) This is on page 66 of the new book. I post what the book says after someone tries to guess.

As someone who was nominally a reviewer, I supposed I should have provided more feedback on sentences like this.

jan_Anti
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby jan_Anti » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:13 pm

I'm assuming the obvious (yet nonsensical) "The piece of paper is on animal legs" is wrong? I'll take a wild guess and say that 'noka' can now be used as a preposition. (Well, technically not a preposition per se, but as a preposition-complement like 'insa' etc.) I'm not sure what it would mean though. We already have 'anpa', and 'in front of' would be 'monsi ala', no?

janMato
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby janMato » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:56 pm

I agree with your translation (The page is on the animal's leg.)

"The document is under the cat"

I would have said, "lipu li lon anpa soweli" or "soweli li lon lipu." neither of which have confusing alternative readings (that I can think of)

aikidave
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Re: LIPU LI LON!

Postby aikidave » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:51 pm

I'm confused with the example on page 32: "What are you doing to her?"
I would write it as: sina pali e seme tawa ona?


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