Change in administrator on the way

Toki Pona news: new website, upcoming book, announcements from the language's creator
Tokiponaj novaĵoj: nova TTT-ejo, venonta libro, aperonta libro, anoncoj de la kreinto de la lingvo
Kuti
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby Kuti » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:58 pm

That is why i told to her that it could be better if she makes the rules before leaving; but Sonja is still here and it is still the "classical era" ;)

janMato
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby janMato » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Kuti wrote:That is why i told to her that it could be better if she makes the rules before leaving; but Sonja is still here and it is still the "classical era" ;)


Sonja could jump back into the game at any time if she wanted to. The distinction isn't entirely chronological, it's has to do with who originated an idea in toki pona.

If we wanted to draw a chronological distinction, I think it would be about 2002-2003 when the toki pona text that appeared on the yahoo mailing list became recognizable to a modern reader, (a whole 10 years later :-)

I hear this same story has played out in Esperanto, where some of the things that Dr. Zamenhoff said in eo aren't considered good colloquial Esperanto anymore. So classical period I guess would be up to when there was a critical mass of people using the language that the system began to solidify in the main (major reforms became impossible) and begin to evolve aroudn the edges ('cause it sort of like a living language after all).

Kuti
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby Kuti » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:21 pm

Could we consider the very early years as "experimental era" ?

jan-ante
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby jan-ante » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:14 am

Jan KoAla wrote: What I mean by that is what toki pona is, is different to everyone who uses it (a very bad thing when trying to talk about "what toki pona needs"). As a language, toki pona is unfinished.

As a game, or a toy of some sort, toki pona works just fine. This also explains why changing anything is the same as "breaking the rules", which makes the game no longer any fun.

I think it's best not to throw around words like "post-classical" as that just makes things more confusing.
i almost agree, but the trems "classical " and "post-classical" are appropriate here. just note that classical Chinese is definitely unfinished language (from the modern point of view) as the words "electricity", "computer", etc are not included. nowdays it is not used for communication. its area of use if in fact a fun, pretending to be an academical study

What some people want is just a finished language that can be used for anything. Other's want a game or a toy or just a fun hobby to play around with, and are content not to have toki pona be a language.
we should remember that classical toki pona is not just the set of rules and words, it has some philosophy behind. you cannot have it as "finished language" with these principles. but if you abandon philosophy, then i see no reason to call it toki pona, it is something new, like Prakrits as opposed to Sanskrit.

janKipo
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby janKipo » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:37 pm

When I wrote, a few years ago, about the futures of tp, I don't think I brought philosophy into it, just purism and pragmatism. But the philosophy does support purism -- not as such (rather the contrary actually) but because it is a philosophy of incuriosity (People in a village, even if they could hear the dogs barking in another village, would not go to see what is happening or even call a question). O)n the other hand (as noted), it is a philosophy of constant change and so supports the constantly changing language. But not, of course, a conscious, thought-out, change (as we are wont to do) but a natural development, where the bottom rises and the top subsides (whatever those are in languages). So, the philosophy says, "Let it alone, don't keep trying to draw it into some fixed framework" -- either the classical one or some new radical one. If someone innovates out of need, leave it lie; itr will either catch on or it won't. If it doesn't, no paroblem. If it does, no problem, though the language has changed.
I. alas, am a Confucian (actually, a Dialectician, I suppose, but they fuse in some areas), so I keep insisting on what is set -- while, like a good Confucian, recognizing that developments can occur within that set.

jan-ante
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby jan-ante » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:20 am

janKipo wrote: O)n the other hand (as noted), it is a philosophy of constant change and so supports the constantly changing language. But not, of course, a conscious, thought-out, change (as we are wont to do) but a natural development, where the bottom rises and the top subsides (whatever those are in languages). So, the philosophy says, "Let it alone, don't keep trying to draw it into some fixed framework" -- either the classical one or some new radical one.
this is not toki pona philosophy, but probably your philosophy says this. however, even this may be not exactly correct as you wish to "have a duumvirate for the nonce until we get areas of influence sorted out". it does not looks like "let it alone".
coming back to philosophy of toki pona, it cannot support the "finished laguage" suitable for everyday communication. such a language needs at least 500 words. moreover it needs to abandon a principle of "honesty" (i.e. naive constructivism) for the speakers comfort.

janSilipu
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby janSilipu » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:53 pm

If tp philosophy is basically Daoism, then this is a fair practical version (without that kooky-spookies). If you have something else in mind, ... The point of "let it alone" is not to plan changes but give everyone a shot and see what sticks. The rest is record keeping and maybe a bit of enforcing existing rules and tendencies -- which are open to dispute, of course. The "needs" you cite seem to be just your ideas, not objective. Tp is an experiment with 120 words. If it doesn't work, someone will try with 150 (or 100 different one -- the present set is odd in several ways).

jan-ante
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby jan-ante » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:45 am

janSilipu wrote:If tp philosophy is basically Daoism, then this is a fair practical version (without that kooky-spookies).
the implication is not valid per se. moreover, tp is not "basicly Daosism", but, as sonja said "Many of these principles were inspired by Taoism, which values a simple, honest life and non-interference with the natural flow of things, as well as other spiritual paths"

If you have something else in mind, ...
it is not that important for current discussion what do i have inj mind. it is important what Sonja had:
Living in the now
Meaning of life
Honesty

please look here for more detailes:
http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/What_is_Toki_Pona%3F

The point of "let it alone" is not to plan changes but give everyone a shot and see what sticks. The rest is record keeping and maybe a bit of enforcing existing rules and tendencies -- which are open to dispute, of course.
then what is your "duumvirate" for? this is how aikidave interprets your "duumvirate": If in fact, the keys of toki pona are passed onto jan Mato and jan Kipo, they should come to a consensus and resolve the open issues. it does not looks like to "give everyone a shot". but, in my opinion, the idea to "give shot" is not bad, just do it honestly: draw the line under toki pona, open a new page, write "toki Kipo" at its top, and make your shot.


The "needs" you cite seem to be just your ideas, not objective.
the needs i cited are not my ideas, they are taken from Knorozov, although i am not sure if the idea belongs to him. but the idea is confirmed by further development of conlangs. e.g. Omar Mubin was inspired by toki pona, but he used something 800 words for his conlang ROILA.

Tp is an experiment with 120 words. If it doesn't work, someone will try with 150 (or 100 different one -- the present set is odd in several ways).
this "try" requires planning rather than "give everyone a shot".the succsess is theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. and, once again, i see no way to preseve the declared principles in this attempt. honesty is too costly to please everyone

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jan Josan
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby jan Josan » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:52 am

Whatever the outcome, it does seem to me that cleaning up all the empty spots on the website is important for attracting new users. As it stands now it is a poor reflection of the depth of toki pona vocabulary, grammar, philosophy and culture. That toki pona has remained as active as it has been without Sonja's daily involvement is a testament to its solid core. I don't think everything has to be set in stone now or anytime in the future, but fewer dead ends on the main website would really help give the impression that becoming involved in toki pona is a current, not past or pending activity.

It's perfectly understandable that Sonja hasn't had the time to work on toki pona as much now as in the past; we all have our own projects that sit waiting for out attention to return. toki pona is unique though in that there are enough participants with an historical respect and understanding to keep the project active and progressing at this point, and I sincerely hope some method could be arranged to facilitate this. Perhaps Sonja would have enough time to take on the roll of Benevolent Dictator for Life even if she isn't mired in the day to day details of fleshing out the on line corpus.

I hesitate to bring this up, because I worry about toki pona activity being spread across too many sites, but I wonder how a stack exchange type Q & A site could help for both beginning and advanced questions about toki pona usage. For example: http://english.stackexchange.com/.

I think this forum works the best when it comes to news announcements, collaborative writing projects and soliciting feedback, and non-directed musings. But we need a better way to answer, and maintain answers to, specific usage questions. And I think we could really benefit from a system with better search results. How many times have you been told "The following words in your search query were ignored because they are too common words (insert any toki pona word here)?

I don't fault the lack of consensus in these forums on the participants as much as on the method. I think the stack exchange methodology could bring a much needed focus on one question tied to relevant answers, a loose consensus of votes up and votes down, and a built in system of privileges based on participation.

janMato
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Re: Change in administrator on the way

Postby janMato » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:00 am

re: stack over flow

Someone already created a "shapado" which is a stack exchange clone for toki pona:

http://tokipona.shapado.com/

Except for a handful of people, only jan Kipo and I used it-- I since returned back to using the forum since it has a larger audience even if it doesn't have voting and questions tend to spin off into unrelated discussions. I figure some prominent links on the tokipona.org page could help kick start promising resources like this and highlight otherwise hard to find toki pona sites on the greater web.

Also, I happen to be the proposer of the "Planned and Constructed Languages" stack exchange proposal. If you could sign on, that would be awesome.

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposa ... -languages


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