Done Dictionary Draft

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janKipo
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Done Dictionary Draft

Post by janKipo »

The final version of the draft tp dictionary (no idioms) is finished and invites comments of all sorts at tpnimi.blogspot.com.
janMato
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Re: Done Dictionary Draft

Post by janMato »

Here's my comments. I'm not done, but I think I've collected enough comments to start a discussion.

Good things
#1 no death sentence for noka
#2 dodgy new words or truly obsolete words listed with caveats (powe, etc)
#3 You wrapped non-canonical suggestions and things that have happened in the community in [square brackets], but it took me a while to realize that is what square brackets meant.

I'd recommend providing sample sentences for the square bracketed definitions because many of them don't appear anywhere (at least not when I search for "li + verb + e" to check for a transitive use of a verb).

luka
- Usually only means fly as an adverb.
? waso li luka
waso li tawa luka

meli
vt to pander (I had to look that up, it still is surprising, i.e. I wouldn't have guessed on initial reading)
? jan Wiko li meli e meli Monika tawa jan pi mani mute. (Referring to Slick and Monique in Sinfest)
? meli Monika li meli e sama tawa jan pi mani mute.

monsi
I'm not sure which one looks better.
jan li monsi e jan ike.
vs
jan li pana e monsi tawa jan iki.

mun
as vt this is not previously attested, but not really problematic though.
jan sona pi kulupu Nasa li mun e ilo wawa

musi
as vt, is this to amuse/enterain someone or to play with something? (or both?) jan Sonja not clear on that either.

mute
Also means exactly 20. I'm not sure if I'm the only one to use it that way. You mentioned ali/ale is 100, though.

nena
rub and sand seem to be the opposite of to roughen
"sting, innoculate" are surprising.
Doesn't seem to be attested as vt. Would want some examples.

noka
vt seems to be unattested for walk, run. (And wouldn't that be intransitive? I guess one could walk a road, but that is sort of edgy applicative sort of move, to put the oblique into DO)
As kick, not attested, but sounds okay
soweli li noke e jan. tenpo ni la jan li pilin ike.
Like luka, this is usally in adverb spot,
soweli li tawa noka.

tan
jan Sonja doesn't any vt examples. needs square brackets.

weka
? o weka e weka - take out the trash
o weka e ijo jaki.

wile
noun li modifier
soweli li wile
the animal is required, wanted, etc.
Works kind of like a passive,

Alt. analysis, DO is omitted.
soweli li wile (e ijo)


Classic Prep List -6
sama, lon, kepeken, tawa, poka , tan

Prep List by jan Kipo List:
above plus...
taso - except
weka - except (... uh, may want to clarify what sense of except for speakers of English as a 2nd language, since we have 2 words meaning except in a prepositional role)
sike - about, concerning (forgot encircling, surrounding)

Are you taking a stand on the expansion of the preposition list, or just noting that these words are sometimes used that way?
janKipo
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Re: Done Dictionary Draft

Post by janKipo »

Well, it's nice to know I got some things right. I'm working from four (sometimes five) lists, so occasional inconsistencies are bound to turn up. I also know that there are other uses out there that I have not recorded, since I stopped recording a couple of years ago.

luka to be corrected. I agree that it parallels noka and I have some trouble explaining it as vt in general terms.
meli I suppose this comes from the "to apply N to" sense of vts from N. A not very useful word but interesting, as you say.
monsi we just need more data on this. I'm not even sure whether it is a verb, a noun, or a modifier (frighten, be afraid of, monster, horror, frightening). I find myself wandering in my usage.
musi I suppose the data is sufficient, but it seems to come down on both sides about equally,
mute I REALLY don't like that usage, but if I put in 100 for ali, I suppose I should include it.
nena The oppositeness of the two translations seems to be inherent in the "apply" and "cause" dichotomy of N>V moves
noka Like luka probably should be just adverbally. I forget (and at my other machine just now), do I have "punch" etc. as a meaning there.
tan Really, no examples? It is, nonetheless, inherent in the parallelism with lon and tawa.
weka "trash" may be a bad choice, just stuff that is removed: standard N is generic DO (moku e moku, etc.)
wile every requirement is someone's desire-- stock Sonjaism, So no passives: "A critter is needed" is always
jan li wile e soweli

I distinguish between the prepositions that keep their complement in non-prep locations. lon, tan, tawa, sama and the others, which have a prep function only in prep position (including as modifiers). I missed the two "excepts" (comes of working in spurts) and don't know quite was meant, maybe something like the difference between exceptional (unique, standout) and excepted (left out of the mass), but that is ex post facto hokery. Maybe something better (like dropping one) will turn up. Much as sike is tempting to solve the "about" problem, I don't think it is justified yet.

Thanks for the comments; let me know when you have more.
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Re: Done Dictionary Draft

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:meli I suppose this comes from the "to apply N to" sense of vts from N. A not very useful word but interesting, as you say.
So you had in mind something like this?
jan pali pi tomo telo li telo nasa li meli e jan wile.
The tavern keep plied his customers with booze and women.
janKipo wrote:monsi we just need more data on this. I'm not even sure whether it is a verb, a noun, or a modifier (frighten, be afraid of, monster, horror, frightening). I find myself wandering in my usage.
I was referring the "monsi" (rear, posterior), not "monsuta" (fear, fearsome) entry. And it looks like you skipped over monsuta.
noka Like luka probably should be just adverbally. I forget (and at my other machine just now), do I have "punch" etc. as a meaning there.
Kicking and punching makes sense at a vt.
The man kicked and punched his enemy.
jan li luka li noka e jan ike.
tan Really, no examples? It is, nonetheless, inherent in the parallelism with lon and tawa.
? jan li tan e ijo (I don't know what this means)
? jan li tan poka e ijo. (The man took the item from the box?)

Invariably beginners do a double take on this construction when they first see it. I think we have maybe 3 or 4 people that use the construction, usually with lon and tawa. Last time I tried to apply this to all the prepositions, it seemed really forced-- maybe a native speaker would have a better intuition of how far this pattern can be taken.
I distinguish between the prepositions that keep their complement in non-prep locations. lon, tan, tawa, sama and the others, which have a prep function only in prep position (including as modifiers).
You mean props that have this construction
X1 li Prep X2 e X3
vs
X1 li verb e X2 Prep X3 Prep X4 ... etc.

It would be handy to have a tidy way to identify those. (Just saying a taxonomy would be useful, not saying that anyone could agree on a taxonomy :-) I'd call the first a "transitive predicate preposition"
janKipo
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Re: Done Dictionary Draft

Post by janKipo »

I knew there was something wrong with monsuta. Do you have a clear sense of which way any of this goes? I don't, which probably why I didn't notice it was missing.
meli Yes. The question is whether it is pander to (customers) or pander for (whores). The former seems best (the performers getting in when needed with tawa)
I like the short form for monsi (since it could also mean "made an ass of" -- in the wrong sense of "ass," but what the hey? Extensions likely in this case.)
tan Well, as you remember, Pije spent a whole lesson trying to make sense of this idiom, complete with a strange notion of a direct object. I think the preposition-wherever-it-occurs line might be easier. Of course, no one ever uses it when any part is the least bit complex, but the alternate for, doubling up on tan is always available (and, again, might be a good way to introduce the odd form)

Yes, those are the prepositions I mean and are the only ones called prepositions in the list (I think). The others are just said to have prepositional uses -- just as the have nominal ones or verbal or modifying, etc. Too subtle?

Second though on monsuta. It seems to offer two sets of possibilities. The most likely (I think) has n: fear, monster; m: fearful; vt: fear, be afraid of. The other is fright; frightening; frighten (which should come easily from the first with kama -- which we have to explain why it isn't a preposition and what is different about a modal). I think I'll go with the first, barring a report on usage.
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