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confusion for a new member - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

confusion for a new member

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Tokiponaj novaĵoj: nova TTT-ejo, venonta libro, aperonta libro, anoncoj de la kreinto de la lingvo
janKipo
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Re: confusion for a new member

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:19 am

'telos' goal, end -- how related to alasa and kama jo? (more like tawa and pini).
OOOOOPS! 20th, of course. Well, Flash was late, Green Arrow missed the target date and Aquaman was washed up.
I get the idea that 'toki sin' is now becoming standard for 'conlang' (or just 'auxlang'?) I like 'toki tomo' better but won't quibble.
Carnap claimed that he could still (this was in the middle 60s, so he was in the middle 70s, I think) whole sentences of Solresol. I don't think I ever heard him actually do so. It would be interesting to work out to what extent the Logical Positivists' search for an ideal language was influenced by the craze for Volapu"k, Solresol, Esperanto and Ido in the youth of the main paractioners, (Ido was led iirc by Peano, and early practitioner of the field). Sona I don't know -- along with about 4000 others (and more daily).

janMato
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Re: confusion for a new member

Postby janMato » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:27 pm

toki sin - artificial languages in general, maybe pidgins and creoles and proto-human language

toki sin pi ma ale - auxlang, imperial lingua francas
toki sin tawa ma ale - better for auxlang, but how to put this safely in nominative slot?
toki sin tawa ma ale li nasa e lawa insa mi.
toki sin pi tawa ma ale li nasa e lawa insa mi
toki sin pi ma ale li nasa e kulupu ante pi toki sin tawa ma ale.

toki sin musi - artlangs

toki sin pi sitelen tawa - Movie languages like Klingon, Na'vi

toki sin ilo - englangs

toki sin nasa - crackpotlang

toki sin pi nasin nanpa - loglans, BNF grammar languages

janKipo
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Re: confusion for a new member

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:37 pm

Well, every conlang is an engilang, they just differ in where they get their blueprints from, and every language altogether has a (E)BNF (though some haven't been worked out yet). That aside -- and a little curiosity about what numbers have to do with Loglan, etc. -- this looks like a functional list and without pejoratives, which may be a record. (I take 'toki sin nasa' as simply descriptive and easy to apply objectively).
I still like 'toki tomo' better.

janMato
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Re: confusion for a new member

Postby janMato » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:24 pm


janKipo
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Re: confusion for a new member

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:40 pm

Yaguello is always a problem for conlangers, but she does tend to focus on philosophic languages, which are a bit more neurotic than most (though a case can be made about loglans). The conlangs with purposes like PoohBahing a story (but the ones for which stories are created may be a different case) and the one created purely as aesthetic objects are easier to accept, as are the one that purport to be intended to test some hypothesis of some sort (often, but not always, linguistic or at least social scientific -- which is to science what social disease is health). Bliss was probably demonstrably loony -- of a rather nasty sort -- but his language is not really all that bad, Weilgart is a better case for a loony language, except for the tradition of philosophic languages (I don't think he really believed he got it from a space man, it was just a good contemporary trope).
Mathematics is a branch of Logic (see Principia Mathematica). But the 'pilin' problem keeps popping up -- maybe some new word will come along to help it.
EBNFs for natural languages are very hard to do, as are any sort of formal grammars, but they can be done (I forget what the outer limit of BNFs is in the spectrum of grammars, but I think it can be extended to cover most of the possibilities). In any case, most conlangs have relatively straightforward EBNFs. Loglans maybe special in that they have actually worked out EBNFs and the other grammars and tend to stick with the results.
Thanks for POP. I have to check its procedures a bit, since it seems to hedge a bit on the most general principle (that is, it uses semantic and pragmatic data to identify words, which is OK in practice but screws up the grammar).

Mako
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Re: confusion for a new member

Postby Mako » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:18 pm

'alasa' - hunt - process/goal
'kama jo' - result
Both meanings are covered by the Aristotelian use of 'telos'. I realize that grammarians have defined 'telic' and 'atelic' more precisely.

janKipo
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Re: confusion for a new member

Postby janKipo » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:33 pm

WOT. That didn't sound right to me, but I haven't done Ancient for more than 40 years, so I dug out my texts (the ones with concordances). I couldn't find any cases where any tel- word was used for a process, though a couple were used for achievements. 'telos' is like "end" in English, it means the cessation of a process (almost always the achievement) and also the goal that is (to be) achieved. So, 'alasa' as a noun is a telos, game to be hunted down, but not 'alasa' as a verb, which is purely process. I forgot to check what A's word for processes is, but it is not telos.


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