Definition of "sama" has changed?

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Pije
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:54 pm

Definition of "sama" has changed?

Post by Pije »

The definition of "sama" seems to have changed:

The new definition at http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/sama
sama
modifier
1. self
Examples
olin sama ike bad self-love; arrogance, conceit, vanity

The old definition at http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/Category_ta ... Pona_words
sama
mod same, similar, equal, of equal status or position
prep like, as, seem

Was this a deliberate change, or did Sonja make a mistake of some sort?

I think the change is a bad idea. Even Sonja's example phrase (i.e., olin sama ike) is confusing, and I never would've figured it out without reading the English translation.

In the past I have suggested adding a word for reflexive pronouns. Specifically, I suggested using "se" (from Spanish) for this. An example:
ona li telo e se. He bathed himself.
janKipo
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Re: Definition of "sama" has changed?

Post by janKipo »

Yes, that does seem to work better, but the "official" version can be made to work with some care (although, doing the semantics has been a bit of a problem -- trying to find a base meaning that can account for all the variations).
janMato
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Re: Definition of "sama" has changed?

Post by janMato »

The extension of sama to cover reflexive and reciprocal constructions looks intentional to me, since there is a whole page on uses of sama
http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/Talk:Reflex ... l_pronouns

Anything you can't deal with lexically needs to be dealt with grammatically.

124-125 words is enough for me.

Outside of adding new words, what other non-sama ways are there to translate self, reciprocals and reflexives?

mi telo e mi

I've tried avoiding using pronouns by repeating when I can, but sometimes this makes reader think I'm talking about a new person.
jan li telo e jan.
jan li telo e jan. jan tu ni li wan.
jan li telo e sama.
jan andu?
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Re: Definition of "sama" has changed?

Post by jan andu? »

Toki!

Just starting to really learn the language, and please excuse me if I'm in the wrong place. Yet I could not help noticing the news that the definition of sama has changed. As a new language learner, this has caused me to think of several questions I would like to pose to all of you:

Do your comments mean that "sama" now means only "self"?
or
Does "sama" now mean "self" AND "same as" or "similar to"?

If "sama" now only means "self", how does one now say that one thing is like another or one thing is similar or the same as another in toki pona? How does one state simile in Toki pona?
Help on this matter would be appreciated.

Pona,
Jan andu?
janKipo
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Re: Definition of "sama" has changed?

Post by janKipo »

It means both and then some. As a pronoun it is reflexive (and reciprocal, which is a problem sometimes); as a modifier it means "same, similar," and probably "own" and "related" (in a family way); as a transitive verb it means "equate with, make equal" and a bunch of other related notions we haven't exactly worked out yet. Welcome to a second-stage conlang!
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jan Josan
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Re: Definition of "sama" has changed?

Post by jan Josan »

jan andu? wrote:Toki!
Do your comments mean that "sama" now means only "self"?
or
Does "sama" now mean "self" AND "same as" or "similar to"?
As far as I know, Sonja hasn't said she is planning on removing old definitions. Since the new definitions page is still in progress I'm assuming she will at some point be going back to sama and adding in additional definitions. There certainly is no other clear way to express "same, similar" without using sama. You maybe could do something with "wan" but it would be very awkward.
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