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Toki Pona's community - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

Toki Pona's community

Toki Pona news: new website, upcoming book, announcements from the language's creator
Tokiponaj novaĵoj: nova TTT-ejo, venonta libro, aperonta libro, anoncoj de la kreinto de la lingvo
janKipo
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Re: Toki Pona's community

Postby janKipo » Sat May 22, 2010 7:54 pm

Also, introducing new content words (nouns, verbs, free standing adjectives) smacks of an essentialism that is foreign to tp specs. It suggests that word or phrase has to have a meaning independent of the circumstances of its use, that some words are for certain specific topics and not for use elsewhere or that general words cannot be used effectively in technical situations, both of which are just not tpish points. Remember again, compounds are not definitions but devices to get the right thing in a given situation and our dictionaries do us something of a disservice by giving them contextless meanings (useful as these often are).
As for the wordlists, the best plan is to assume that any word can occur in any usage and the comments on the wordlist place them in their home category, which determines their meaning (more or less) when used in other categories. There are still some quibbles, but the basic patterns are fairly secure.
Last edited by janKipo on Wed May 26, 2010 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Logomachist
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Re: Introducing new nimi

Postby Logomachist » Wed May 26, 2010 1:07 pm


janKipo
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Re: Toki Pona's community

Postby janKipo » Wed May 26, 2010 1:44 pm

<<If you're just reaching for a way to phrase something in toki pona but the current vocabulary doesn't support it, I think that's a good reason to coin a new phrase which may be picked up by others and work its way into the official vocab. IMO the more this is done the richer Toki Pona gets.>>
If you are just trying to find a way to say x in the abstract in tp, then you may well fail, but not through any fault of tp. If, in a concrete situation you want to point to or otherwise indicate x (or use reference to x to indicate something else) and fail, that would be a failure of tp, perhaps. But, aside from precise big numbers and numbers (and letters) used as names, no one has presented a clear case of such a failure. So the need to expand tp (except as noted) has not been demonstrated. I can't define a proton in tp in the abstract, but I can get you to one in a lab, I'll bet.
Sunzi is not particularly a Daoist, though every good strategist has to be one to an extent as going with the flow is almost as important as planning ahead and keeping your supply lines open.

janMato
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Re: Introducing new nimi

Postby janMato » Wed May 26, 2010 1:52 pm


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jan Josan
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Re: Toki Pona's community

Postby jan Josan » Wed May 26, 2010 4:25 pm

My biggest worry is that all the toki pona vocabulary is quickly memorized, but understanding all the ways that the basic words can be effectively combined takes a deceptively long time. Entertaining community added words would probably mean a lot of new users of toki pona wanting to be creative by adding new words, rather than learning to work with what we have.

However, as jan Mato points out, there is the 'jan nasa li wile ante e toki pona' section of this forum, and people have put out ideas for new words or concepts they think are inexpressible. Chances are no-one is going to say "your right we absolutely need this word" but it's a great way to see how others in the community would tackle the concept given the current words we already have.

janKipo
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Re: Toki Pona's community

Postby janKipo » Wed May 26, 2010 5:50 pm

Yes, after checkers tp comes chess tp (or, at least -- or at most? -- go tp). In any case, none of us play it very well yet, but some glimmers appear from time to time, when someone puzzles us all and then we see a new way forward by what he did.
I keep trying to think of a real world situation where I need to say "equanimity".
Last edited by janKipo on Sun May 30, 2010 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TP design goals and evolution

Postby Logomachist » Sat May 29, 2010 8:54 am


janKipo
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Re: TP design goals and evolution

Postby janKipo » Sat May 29, 2010 1:08 pm


janMato
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Re: Toki Pona's community

Postby janMato » Sat May 29, 2010 11:11 pm

Re: change of pace in a language or conlang

If we take the rules of thumb from glottochronology in the IE languages, languages change just barely noticeably in 100 years, become a new language in a few hundred and are unreconstructable after about 10,000. From watching deaf children spontaneously creating their own languages, those languages evolve rapidly initially and then slow down like ordinary natural languages.

In the corpus, after about 2 years after toki pona's birth, it all starts to look the same and new learners adopt those conventions really fast. So at the moment, imho, toki pona is already at the point where convention and "the mob" is deciding, not so much the conlanger deciding, be it jan Sonja or fans in the community like jan Pije (and the other 2, jan Pije emailed me their names).

I suspect the issue with lojban is not that conlang get to stay in that state of being undecided and flexible for longer-- the case with lojban is that it is so hard that no one can learn the conventions fast enough to get a serious community content to just read and write it, where as toki pona was learnable in 2 months and once one feels competent in the language, any major reworking of it seems like a bad idea or at best, an invitation to repeat two months of work. For the lojban fan-- that probably isn't fluent yet-- it's not to painful to suggest a radical change that would make prior art obsolete.

janKipo
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Re: Toki Pona's community

Postby janKipo » Sun May 30, 2010 9:19 am

Well, glottochronology is a piece of crap, being wrong both historically and statistically, that is to say, procedurally. The general observation is handy, but subject to a large number of counter examples: languages which have changed radically in the last 100 years, say, or ones that have hardly changed at all for a thousand (oddly, the same languages in some cases). The official version doesn't even work very well for I-E (not its creator's specialty), but was moderately good in Chinesey stuff, iirc.

tp has stabilized pretty much, except for Sonja's occasional titivations, and its simplicity probably is the reason. The problem with Lojban is indeed its complexity, though this has seemed to mitigate against innovations rather than to allow them to sneak in, since it has created a central authority which is highly conservative (insofar as it understands what it is it is conserving).

Learn tp in 2 months? What did you do the the other 58 days?


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