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Comments on esun - Page 3 - Toki Pona Forums

Comments on esun

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janMato
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janMato » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:40 am


janKipo
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janKipo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:00 pm

I take jan Ote's point to be that it is doubtful whether the items were even beads, let alone whether they were used for money. That beads were eventually used for money (in some sense -- "money" is a rather shaky concept outside of the modern situation) is not in dispute, but when this shift from decoration to commerce (or perhaps the opposite shift -- which is clearly also the case) took place is an issue. Not one we need be concerned about, of course, since, while we have money, we don't have shells -- nor mollusks, for that matter.

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janMato » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:55 pm


jan-ante
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby jan-ante » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:57 pm


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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janKipo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:54 pm

jan Kipo is confused about the whole thing and, frankly, doesn't give a damn (sorry, just found a Rhett Butler plate in an attic). I don't see that shopping is more central to American lifestyle than to say British or German or French, although stereotypes do have a grain of truth and there may be a higher percentage of the believers in retail therapy in America than in most other countries -- or else they show up more clearly. And, of course, I don't see what all this has to do with 'esun,' which will do for any sort of exchange of goods and services, not just shopping (which, in its purest American form, involves no exchanges whatsoever) nor even just those involving money (indeed, it is tricky to get money into an esun sentence, as so far developed). As for money being as old as human culture, that turns out to be tricky (as noted earlier); there may have been standardized exchange rates, for example (one lactating cow for a wife, say) without cows being money. You can even have government-issued tokens (and this is way late in civilization, maybe 5000 years ago) and still not have money (cf the notes of the Continental Congress, which were traded in free-fall). Cynically, I would say you don't have money until you have counterfeiters (back to that -3000 again, I think). So, anyhow, esun is an essential part of every culture and may, indeed, be part of what defines a culture as opposed to a species instinct (but then we do seem to get some culture among the other jan). And money comes in when it is handy to do so and a government to make it work. And the point of the cited article was that the so-called beads gave every indication of being the leftovers from a lunch, neither ornament or money (or trade goods) but just trash (and so available in excess of need for money and ornament.

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janMato » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:16 pm


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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janMato » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:27 pm


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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janKipo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:01 pm

Well, we're getting all definitional now. Okay, a Continental is money as issued, but it doesn't function as money in use: as a fixed medium of exchange. Envisioning how exchange of goods and services (esun) is going to work in a thoroughly socialist economy is something that gives fantasy writers a field day -- and has for more than a century (at least -- it's hard to characterize some of the earlier utopias and dystopias). Btw, American bills are even worse than British toilet paper, they are non-absorbent and have funny little threads that prickle.

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janMato » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:14 pm


jan-ante
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby jan-ante » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:46 pm



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