Comments on esun

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jan Ote
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby jan Ote » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:27 pm

janKipo wrote:pakala a! jaK Ote o, the event market or bazaar (or souk or ...) is older and more basic than the store
jan Kipo o, I know they are older. But I suggest to gather market-events in one list (one meaning), when market-places in another. Please take a closer look at Sonja's text:
Sonja wrote:1. market
a community event where people trade goods; ...
2. store
a place where goods are offered for sale; ...
It have inspired me to use this criterion consistently:
jan Ote wrote:1. market (event)
a community event where people trade goods; ...
2. market, store (place)
a place where goods are offered for sale; ...
That's why I suggest moving all "places" to the second section.

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janKipo » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:43 pm

OK, gotcha. jan Sonja does distinguish the two things as two separable meanings of the word, but then mixes the examples. Part of the problem is that the same word has carried over from one use to the other in some cases and also that the event and the place where it regularly occurs get referred to indiscriminately by the same word (town names in "-market" for example). Sorry I got off on the wrong track.

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby Sonja » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:19 pm

Thanks, Ote. Can I use your suggestions to reorganize my definition?

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jan Ote
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby jan Ote » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:56 pm

Of course, Sonja. Glad I could help.

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby Sonja » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:06 pm

How about this version? http://en.tokipona.org/w/index.php?titl ... oldid=1545

Maybe it's more clear.

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jan Ote
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby jan Ote » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:46 am

For me it's clear and various examples of community events make it easier to understand and acquire the new term.

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby akesipalisa » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:24 pm

jan ali o, toki!

As "sitelen" may mean, among other things, "to paint" or "picture", I don't see a reason to limit esun to a trading place, but suggest it to be used in a verb function, too:
mi esun e kili = I buy fruit/vegetables, mi esun e kili tawa jan = I sell fruit (to other people). "lon/tomo esun" would unambiguously mean a place/building where people sell and buy things.
I'm not sure whether a word such as kijetesantakalu is really needed in tp, especially in the light of the broad rejection of creating words for left/right or larger numbers. I'm ready to accept kijetesantakalu to be included into the tp vocabulary just as a nice "ornament" but I ask myself and you all whether words like kipisi or namako should be added while it is still nearly impossible to express something like "it's a rather difficult question" or "have a seat, please" in tp in a way which every tokiponian can easily understand without additional explanations in English or Esperanto.
Maybe I'm too rigid? mi wile mute sona e pilin pi sina ali.
jan Elumutu

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:48 pm

Well, 'kijetasantakalu' (or whatever) was a joke (dated April 1 and all) and I hope is not really going to turn up in anything tp (I suppose 'soweli Kinkasu' and the like might get in here in some way, but ...).

I see the entry on 'esun' (like most of the entries at this time) to be very incomplete, just taking care of easy or obvious or already thought out parts, with the rest yet to come. So, I expect to see 'esun' as a verb, both transitive and intransitive, and as an adjective and (given tp) maybe some other things as well (a preposition for 'price per unit"?)

tp is assumed to be polite, so the "please" is assumed and then "have a seat" is 'o anpa e monsi sina' (plop your butt. to put it not at all politely). As for hard questions, those are just ones I can't answer very well (right?) so 'mi sona pona ala e ni' (tp tends to cut through a lot of rhetorical dodging.)

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Re: Comments on esun

Postby janMato » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:11 pm

jan-ante wrote:sina toki e ijo pona

shopping is an essential part of american life cycle:

ona li lape
ona li lawa e tomo tawa
ken la ona li pali
ona li lawa e tomo tawa
ona li kama jo e ijo mute lon tomo pana ijo / ona li tawa esun
ona li lawa e tomo tawa
ona li lape


If cars were basic to the toki ponan person, then we'd expect it to have one word for car, instead of a phrase. I'd say the language implies a very pedestrian sort of human that does ordinary things, jan li sin li moku li unpa li olin li moli.

Even money first appears in the archeological record 40,000 years ago, tools showed up 2+ million years ago. toki pona can be ruled out as a Neanderthal or other pre-human language though-- jan Nijandata li jo ala e mani e esun.

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jan Ote
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Re: Comments on esun

Postby jan Ote » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:33 am

janMato wrote:Even money first appears in the archeological record 40,000 years ago.
I dare to doubt. The linked page doesn't contain records confirming this thesis.


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