Simplicity Quotes

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Altruismo, alternativaj kulturoj, teĥnologio, simpla vivado, daŭrigebleco, primitivismo
janMato
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Simplicity Quotes

Postby janMato » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:46 pm

"Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."—Albert Einstein (1879–1955)
mi en sina en ona li wile e ni : li jo e ijo tawa lili. (why do we need a subject? It's like having to say "it" in "it snows" in English?)
I, you, and he wants this, that things have few moving parts.

"You can always recognize truth by its beauty and simplicity."—Richard Feynman (1918–1988)
o sona lukin e lon tan ni: lon li pona lukin li sama lipu sitelen pi walo taso.
Know by sight the truth this way, truth is good looking, like a clean slate.

"Our lives are frittered away by detail; simplify, simplify."—Henry David Thoreau (1817–1862)
mi weka e pilin pona e tempo suno kepeken pali lili. o weka o weka e pali lili.
We throw away our good feelings, our days with work of small things. Throw ways the little work!

"Simplicity divides into tools, which are used by Beorma as Royal Highness."—Duke of Beorma (ca. 793–1150)
o waso telo li pakala e sama! seme li jan lawa "Beorma" lon ma sona ala? mi sona ala e ona e nimi ona.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."—Leonardo da Vinci (1452–1519)[citation needed]
pona mute li e ni: pali kepeken ala ilo kepeken ala ijo kepeken ala ala.
It's good to work without tools, stuff or anything.

"If you can't describe it simply, you can't use it simply."—Anon
sina toki supa e ilo kepeken nimi mute la sina kepeken e ilo kepeken pali mute.
If you talk about a tool with many words, you will use it with a lot of work.

"Simplicity means the achievement of maximum effect with minimum means."—Koichi Kawana, architect of botanical gardens
sina wile ala wile kama jo e ijo pona mute? sina wile ala wile pali e pali mute ala? o kepeken e ijo lili.
Want to get to have lots of good things? You want to not work so much? Use few things.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."—Antoine de Saint Exupéry
pona li kama la mi wile namako ala taso pona kama lon tempo ni: mi wile weka ala e ala.
Good arrives if we want not to add but good arrives on this time: we want not to remove nothing

"Simplicity is the direct result of profound thought."—Anon
sina kama tawa ma pi namako ala la sina sona anpa.
If you think deeply, you come to the land of nothing extra.

The language of simplicity seems to lack an obvious, transparent noun phrase for "simplicity".
Last edited by janMato on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

janKipo
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Re: Simplicity Quotes

Postby janKipo » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:14 pm

<<"Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."—Albert Einstein (1879–1955)
mi en sina en ona li wile e ni : li jo e ijo tawa lili. (why do we need a subject? It's like having to say "it" in "it snows" in English?)
I, you, and he wants this, that things have few moving parts.>>
Not quite the same, since some simple things (in AE's sense) have lotsa parts and some things with few parts are hideously complex (chess always a favorite example). As to why a subject : if you have a having you have to have a haver as well as a havee. Snowing is another problem altogether.

<<You can always recognize truth by its beauty and simplicity."—Richard Feynman (1918–1988)
o li lukin sona e lon tan ni: lon li pona lukin li sama selo walo.
Know by sight the truth this way, truth is good looking, like a clean slate.>>
Again, not quite the same, but now only in minor ways. No 'li' with 'o'. probably 'sona lukin.' "like white skin" ain't "like a clean slate" and will get you into problems you don't want here. 'lipu sitelen pi walo taso'? (well, clean slates aren't white, but this is a page).

<<"Our lives are frittered away by detail; simplify, simplify."—Henry David Thoreau (1817–1862)
mi weka e pilin pona e tempo suno kepeken pali lili. o weka o weka e pali lili.
We throw away our good feelings, our days with work of small things. Throw ways the little work!>>
Pretty good. The last could, of course, be just 'o pona o pona'

<<"Simplicity divides into tools, which are used by Beorma as Royal Highness."—Duke of Beorma (ca. 793–1150)
o waso telo li pakala e sama! seme li jan lawa "Beorma" lon ma sona ala? mi sona ala e ona e nimi ona.>>
May the duck (gull?) destroy itself indeed. probably 'ma pi sona ala' but it doesn't seem to make much difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beorma hwich helpeth naught

<,"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."—Leonardo da Vinci (1452–1519)[citation needed]
pona mute li e ni: pali kepeken ala ilo kepeken ala ijo kepeken ala.
It's good to work without tools, stuff or anything.>>
Way offcourse and not great tp: 'jan li pali kepeken ala ilo li pali kepeken ala ijo ...' which is prolix, so maybe 'jan li pali kepeken ala ilo en ijo en ali' which works de Morganly, somehow. But I miss the shift from 'kepeken ala x' to just 'kepeken ala' Still, nothing to do with Leonardo.

<<"If you can't describe it simply, you can't use it simply."—Anon
sina toki supa e ilo kepeken mute nimi la sina kepeken e ilo kepeken pali mute.
If you talk about a tool with many words, you will use it with a lot of work.>>
Maybe a corollary, but not the theorem cited. 'supa e' for "about" is new, but still a calque. This just needs language wide work. 'nimi mute'

<<"Simplicity means the achievement of maximum effect with minimum means."—Koichi Kawana, architect of botanical gardens
sina wile kama jo e ijo pona mute? sina wile pali ala e mute? o kepeken e ijo lili.
Want to get to have lots of things? You want to not work so much? Use few things.>>
Low and outside. 'sina wile ala wile kama jo e ijo mute' (pona not in eng) "You want to not make many/much" 'x ala x' for question, "not work much" is 'pali mute ala'

<<"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."—Antoine de Saint Exupéry
pona li kama la mi wile namako ala. taso pona LI kama lon tempo ni: mi wile weka ala e ala.
Good arrives if we want not to add but good arrives on this time: we want not to remove nothing>>
First part misses the point "If good comes, I do not want to elaborate" Probably true, but the point is that you could reach the point of not wanting to add anything and still not have reached perfection. The second part is going to be problematic as written, since it amounts to 'mi wile weka e ijo' probably 'mi wile weka e ala' is simplest correction (tp is Englishy, not Russiany -- or colloquial English, for that matter). 'lon' with time is suspect, too -- needs a ruling.

<<"Simplicity is the direct result of profound thought."—Anon
sina sona anpa la sina kama tawa ma pi namako ala.
If you think deeply, you come to the land of nothing extra.>>
Nope, hysteron proteron, as so often in the Kingdom. "If you get there, then you have thought profoundly."

<<The language of simplicity seems to lack an obvious, transparent noun phrase for "simplicity".>> Errh! pona.

janMato
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Re: Simplicity Quotes

Postby janMato » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:37 pm

Edits made above in bold.

janKipo wrote: As to why a subject : if you have a having you have to have a haver as well as a havee. Snowing is another problem altogether.

Hmm, seems like in both cases the subject is unknown or ill defined and the speaker isn't trying to call undue attention to it. "The horse is owned" vs "Some one owns this horse", "It's snowing" vs "God's got dandruff". I'll have to read up on sentences without subjects.

janKipo wrote:could... be just 'o pona o pona'

Small contronym problem. The word contains it's part of it's own opposite. Improve vs simplify. Home improvements don't mean tearing down the sun room and the deck. Unless they were ugly.

janKipo wrote: 'jan li pali kepeken ala ilo en ijo en ali' which works de Morganly, somehow.

I though en only joined noun phrases in the nominative section (ie. before the li). I'm confused, what's your mental model of "en"?

janKipo wrote: (Double negatives)... 'mi wile weka e ala' is simplest correction (tp is Englishy, not Russiany -- or colloquial English, for that matter).

Just checked. Most IE languages are double negatives, Chinese is "two negatives resolve to positive" And a triple negative in Chinese resolves to negative! I've read somewhere that the "any" in "I didn't greet anyone, I didn't get any, I didn't want anything" is an unnecessary ... unless English is still a double negative language, we just switch no one to anyone, none to any, nothing to anything. Should we really be saying "I didn't greet? I didn't get? I didn't want?"

janKipo wrote: 'lon' with time is suspect, too -- needs a ruling.

Well, abstractions need to be dealt with some how, lacking a "during", we can use one of the other prepositions
lon - TIME is a PLACE, mi wile pali lon tempo suno. I want to work in the sun time (i.e. daytime)
kepeken - TIME is a TOOL (not hardly)- mi wile pali kepeken tempo suno. Seems a stretch.
sama - TIME is a NEAR COPY. maybe, mi wile pali sama tempo suno. Seems a stretch.
tawa - TIME is A FAR AWAY PLACE (doesn't quite work) mi wile pali tawa tempo suno. Sounds like movement more than a place.
tan - TIME is a GOAL/CAUSE/REASON FOR (not hardly) mi wile pali tan tempo suno. Completely different sense, sunny times are making me work, I work for the sunny time.

I'll have to think if there's any prep-less solutions.

janKipo wrote: obvious, transparent noun phrase for "simplicity".>> Errh! pona.

Doesn't work for me. Plus if it means simple, then our friends are simpletons. Ike still doesn't feel right either as meaning complex. I think if I rewrote the quotes with pona/ike, it would be rendered unintelligible because the sense of good/bad will overwhelm any feeling of simple/complex and create a lot of circular reasoning. pone li pona. Simplicity is good. ike li ike. Complexity is bad. pone ala li ike. Complexity is bad. ike ala li pona. Simplicity is good. But I would read them as good is good, bad is bad. It's like the buffalo sentence, Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo is a grammatical sentence, but the image of an animal will override all other senses of the word. pona la pona li pona e pona kepeken pona.

I think "mu" is promising candidate for simplicity. An uncarved block is simple.

jan_Niko
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Re: Simplicity Quotes

Postby jan_Niko » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:18 am

janMato wrote:(why do we need a subject? It's like having to say "it" in "it snows" in English?)


This is an interesting point, especially since Toki Pona is very structurally similar to pidgins, and most pidgins are pro-drop (i.e. snows instead of it snows). I would imagine that since Toki Pona is already extremely ambiguous, it would be too confusing if it allowed for pronoun dropping.

janKipo
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Re: Simplicity Quotes

Postby janKipo » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:32 pm

janMato wrote:Edits made above in bold.

janKipo wrote: As to why a subject : if you have a having you have to have a haver as well as a havee. Snowing is another problem altogether.

Hmm, seems like in both cases the subject is unknown or ill defined and the speaker isn't trying to call undue attention to it. "The horse is owned" vs "Some one owns this horse", "It's snowing" vs "God's got dandruff". I'll have to read up on sentences without subjects.

Well, of course, good tp just has 'ko lete li lon' since it doesn't make snowing and raining into verbs (I forget how Loglan/Lojban finally puzzled that one out). But, lacking passives, it has similar problems and solves them in its own terms with indefinites. The rigors of grammar don't allow the unfilled subject slot in declarative sentences (cf English but for different cases).
janKipo wrote:could... be just 'o pona o pona'

Small contronym problem. The word contains it's part of it's own opposite. Improve vs simplify. Home improvements don't mean tearing down the sun room and the deck. Unless they were ugly.

They don't necessarily involve adding or complicating things either. 'pona' as a vt means "make something pona" so not necessarily the same as "improve' in some English sense. That is, there is no contradiction here at all, rather a reinforcement.
janKipo wrote: 'jan li pali kepeken ala ilo en ijo en ali' which works de Morganly, somehow.

I though en only joined noun phrases in the nominative section (ie. before the li). I'm confused, what's your mental model of "en"?

Works in the prep object section too (but not the direct object -- at least for head nouns). 'en' needs some comments, since there are two possible ways to expand the collapsed forms here and they give radically different results.
janKipo wrote: (Double negatives)... 'mi wile weka e ala' is simplest correction (tp is Englishy, not Russiany -- or colloquial English, for that matter).

Just checked. Most IE languages are double negatives, Chinese is "two negatives resolve to positive" And a triple negative in Chinese resolves to negative! I've read somewhere that the "any" in "I didn't greet anyone, I didn't get any, I didn't want anything" is an unnecessary ... unless English is still a double negative language, we just switch no one to anyone, none to any, nothing to anything. Should we really be saying "I didn't greet? I didn't get? I didn't want?"

No, the object seems necessary except in the most poetical folderol. "any" is one of English's ways of dealing with the expansion ambiguity mentioned above: it forces "all" to be expanded first, before "not" (and a couple of other difficult operators). The claim about IE languages is suspect, since most logicians are IE and have been very fussy about this -- but that my be because they were complaining about the way ordinary people talked.
janKipo wrote: 'lon' with time is suspect, too -- needs a ruling.

Well, abstractions need to be dealt with some how, lacking a "during", we can use one of the other prepositions
lon - TIME is a PLACE, mi wile pali lon tempo suno. I want to work in the sun time (i.e. daytime)
kepeken - TIME is a TOOL (not hardly)- mi wile pali kepeken tempo suno. Seems a stretch.

'ike sijelo li kama pona kepeken tenpo' "time heals all wounds"
sama - TIME is a NEAR COPY. maybe, mi wile pali sama tempo suno. Seems a stretch.
tawa - TIME is A FAR AWAY PLACE (doesn't quite work) mi wile pali tawa tempo suno. Sounds like movement more than a place.
tan - TIME is a GOAL/CAUSE/REASON FOR (not hardly) mi wile pali tan tempo suno. Completely different sense, sunny times are making me work, I work for the sunny time.

I'll have to think if there's any prep-less solutions.

I hope so; most seem to use the 'la' structure. BTW, "goal" (as opposed to "cause/reason") is 'tawa'.
Since I don't quite get what you are driving at here, I am not sure what to make of your remarks and cases. We use preps a lot for time notions, but it is not clear how that translates into tp -- what preps, if any, or what else to use.

janKipo wrote: obvious, transparent noun phrase for "simplicity".>> Errh! pona.

Doesn't work for me. Plus if it means simple, then our friends are simpletons. Ike still doesn't feel right either as meaning complex. I think if I rewrote the quotes with pona/ike, it would be rendered unintelligible because the sense of good/bad will overwhelm any feeling of simple/complex and create a lot of circular reasoning. pone li pona. Simplicity is good. ike li ike. Complexity is bad. pone ala li ike. Complexity is bad. ike ala li pona. Simplicity is good. But I would read them as good is good, bad is bad. It's like the buffalo sentence, Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo is a grammatical sentence, but the image of an animal will override all other senses of the word. pona la pona li pona e pona kepeken pona.

too much English in your brew: tp 'pona' means pona, not good, etc. When needed, we can sort things out to English satisfaction by adding something that suggests morality rather than systemics, perhaps. But, of course, tp is quite happy with the tautologies.
I think "mu" is promising candidate for simplicity. An uncarved block is simple.

? "pu" is the uncarved block (of which Winnie is the the), 'mu' is the answer to the koan, "Do cows have the Buddha nature?"


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