Ardipithecus

Altruism, alternative cultures, technology, simple living, sustainability, primitivism, etc.
Altruismo, alternativaj kulturoj, teĥnologio, simpla vivado, daŭrigebleco, primitivismo
janKipo
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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby janKipo » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:38 pm

I had in mind a double headed noun phrase, the opposite headless noun phrase where both words in the noun phrase are modifiers. "low life", "oil mice" (examples from Pinker) A low life is not a "low" or a "life". Ardepithicus is a human and an animal at the same time.

tp doesn't do bahuvrihis well (exocentric compounds, where the referent of the whole is not referred to by any of the components, the usual English example in my day being "Red Cap," a now unintelligible reference to Afro-American personnel of train terminals who carried one's bags for a nominal fee). By definition, the first word of a compound is a head and defines what the thing is generally, the rest are all modifiers, so we can't have a headless noun phrase or one made up only of modifiers (other constructed languages have this problem as well, even Eo) or only heads.

By the way, humans are animals, they just aren't soweli. But then, neither is Ardipithecus.

None of your cases are controversial, they just don't have that analysis in tp. They are all head-modifier, because that is all there is in tp. You may to try to translate them otherwise, but your translations would be, to that extent, defective. You may try to frame other constructions in tp, but, so long as you use the linear forms, you will fail.

The more complex uses of the same format don't work much better -- for reasons noted.
Last edited by janKipo on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jan Josan
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jan pi len lawa loje

Postby jan Josan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:14 pm

We still have (mixed race) Red Caps in Penn Station. When I'm in there I hear over the intercom "All available Red Caps to the waiting area" whenever a train is ready for boarding. And they do indeed still wear red caps.

janMato
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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby janMato » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:38 pm

janKipo wrote:b happens not merely on the occasion of a but also because a happens.


tempo ni la mi sona e sina. (In the sense of I understand you.)

What else are we to do with the emotional attachment to Rottweilers so strong that one fucks them?


olin li olin. unpa li unpa. kin la nasa li e ni: soweli ala li unpa e soweli.

Hmm. Is the verb between "li" and "e" obligatory?

janKipo
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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby janKipo » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:43 pm

Glad to hear there are still Red Caps. I didn't realize it had been that long since I was in a train station. Glad to hear that the pool has expanded a bit, too.

Yes, ya gotta has a verb in there. 'nasa li ni:' is possible or 'ni li nasa' with the understanding that this does not go back to the previous but on to the next (I'm not sure how reliable context will be for this.)

The possibility that only humans unpa seems unlikely, but then, I wouldn't have expected the restriction on 'olin' either.

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jan Ote
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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby jan Ote » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:54 am

janKipo wrote:What jan Ote says about 'olin,' though I doubt whether it will survive, given mainly English speakers in the community.
Then I will use liberum veto rule.
janKipo wrote:What else are we to do with the emotional attachment to Rottweilers so strong that one fucks them?
unpa li unpa. olin li olin.

pipi li unpa e pipi. pipi li olin ala e pipi.
akesi li unpa e akesi. akesi li olin ala e akesi.
jan li unpa e soweli walo. jan ni li olin ala e soweli ni.
jan li unpa e jan unpa. jan ni li olin ala e jan unpa ni.
jan li olin e mama ona. jan li unpa ala e mama ona.

I think it's not so difficult to distinguish between 'to love SB' and 'to like very much SB/STH', even to English speakers. Love=olin is interpersonal, affectionate feeling: if person A loves person B, then even if person B doesn't love person A, it is possible, he could love person A.
A li ken olin e B la B li ken olin e A.
A li olin e B la A li ken toki e ni tawa B: mi olin e sina.
A li olin e B la B li ken toki e ni tawa A: mi olin e sina.

So, one definitelly cannot olin sweets, cannot olin a music, but he can olin a man, a woman, a god. He can eventually even olin an animal - IF he believes the animal can feel the same towards him, can olin him the same way (still I doubt it is possible). But: I wouldn't say that I love all women. I would not and could not say "I love you" to each and every woman. The same way one cannot say that he olin all dogs. So, "the emotional attachment to Rottweilers so strong that one fucks them" is just a desire, a lust, not olin.
There is a Russian film "}{0TT@БЬ)Ч" (2006), where a genie (then jan) falls in love with an IRC chatbot, because he doesn't realize 'she' is a program.* So, jan Hottabych li olin e ona. taso ona li jan ala. ona li ijo toki.
____
* By the way: 'her' IRC [nick]name is Киса (Kisa), RU: "Kitty".

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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby janMato » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:30 am

wan li lukin ala e jan sewi. wan li pilin ala e jan sewi. wan li pilin kon ala e jan sewi kepeken neni sinpin sama. (I'm looking for indefinate subject, "one never see's god.")

ona li lukin ala e jan sewi. ona li pilin ala e jan sewi. ona li pilin kon ala e jan sewi kepeken neni sinpin sama. (more conservative, less intelligible version of the same)

jan sewi li toki ala. jan sewi li tawa kepkeken noka ala.

jan sewi li ijo nasin sama nanpa.

kin la jan li ken olin ala e jan sewi ala.

kin la jan lawa pi ma Keme li jan sewi. ona li ken olin.

mi pilin e ni: olin li ala lon ma IRC. ilo IRC li kama e ale tawa jan pi uta sinpin pi nimi jaki.

I don't see how love could flourish in IRC. It turns everyone in potty mouthed jerks.

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jan Ote
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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby jan Ote » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:12 am

janMato wrote:wan li lukin ala e jan sewi. wan li pilin ala e jan sewi. wan li pilin kon ala e jan sewi kepeken neni sinpin sama. (I'm looking for indefinate subject, "one never see's god.")
Just 'jan':
jan li lukin ala e jan sewi. = man (or 'people') not seen a god.
janMato wrote:kin la jan li ken olin ala e jan sewi ala.
jan li ken olin e jan sewi.
If one BELIEVES that a god exists, then he can love this god. And he can believe that this god loves him or can love him. It doesn't matter that for nonbelievers he loves an imagined person. Still this is love, olin, also from a nonbeliever's point of view.

janMato wrote:kin la jan lawa pi ma Keme li jan sewi. ona li ken olin.
meli sewi Isis li ken olin kin.

janMato wrote:I don't see how love could flourish in IRC. It turns everyone in potty mouthed jerks.
Well, for getting to know each other the best way is... to talk. Be it face to face, by phone, e-mail or IRC. Talks depend on an IRC channel, I suppose. Anyway, it was a movie, a comedy.

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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:03 am

janMato wrote:wan li lukin ala e jan sewi. wan li pilin ala e jan sewi. wan li pilin kon ala e jan sewi kepeken nena sinpin sama. (I'm looking for indefinite subject, "one never see's god.")

ona li lukin ala e jan sewi. ona li pilin ala e jan sewi. ona li pilin kon ala e jan sewi kepeken nena sinpin sama. (more conservative, less intelligible version of the same)


Probably 'jan' is best. "a person" 'ona' is etymologically related, but not used in this way (officially).
jan sewi li toki ala. jan sewi li tawa kepkeken noka ala.

Ambiguous -- does god move, just not using feet, or does god not move at all?
jan sewi li ijo nasin sama nanpa.

Well, I keep coming back to "law of nature," but that doesn't quite work either.
kin la jan li ken olin ala e jan sewi ala.

Have you gone an 'ala' too far?
kin la jan lawa pi ma Keme li jan sewi. ona li ken olin.

I think we went for 'ma Masu' in this case, though the older form has a lot going for it. Pharoah can love, but can he be loved?
mi pilin e ni: olin li ala lon ma IRC. ilo IRC li kama e ale tawa jan pi uta sinpin pi nimi jaki.

I don't see how love could flourish in IRC. It turns everyone in potty mouthed jerks.

Not being into irc, I'll pass on this one. Probably don't need 'sinpin' here. I take it "jerks" is implied, not stated.

janMato
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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby janMato » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:16 pm

jan Ote wrote:
janMato wrote:kin la jan lawa pi ma Keme li jan sewi. ona li ken olin.
meli sewi Isis li ken olin kin.


I had in mind the fact that men (Pharaohs) became gods after they died. So gods that were men, would indubitably be in the "jan" category. As far as reciprocality, as a test, I immediately think of Scrooge, the Dickens character who for much of the story was incapable of love and probably too old for unpa.

I think, the whole olin/pilin pona tawa seme/unpa thing seems like a slippery set of categories that would require a developed constructed-culture or a suffiencently large corpus of texts by fluent speakers to resolve.

jan Ote wrote:
janMato wrote:I don't see how love could flourish in IRC. It turns everyone in potty mouthed jerks.
Well, for getting to know each other the best way is... to talk. Be it face to face, by phone, e-mail or IRC. Talks depend on an IRC channel, I suppose. Anyway, it was a movie, a comedy.


mi sona sama e pilin sina. I agree.
taso mi la IRC li ike. toki li sinpin tawa sinpin e ni: ona li pona.

janKipo
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Re: Ardipithecus

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:47 pm

The "'olin' for people only" is a fiat (or ukase, or something) from jan Sonja, raising the issue of the line between created language and language.

<<toki li sinpin tawa sinpin e ni: ona li pona.>> This is pretty opaque in tp (or pretty not in tp) Lord knows what 'sinpin' is as a transitive verb and the object is out of place: "Talk makes a face of this for a face" where "this" turns out to be "It is good" I suppose something like this: 'ni li pona: jan mute li toki sama la jan ni li lukin e sama.' Or some such.


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