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Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:53 am
by Baerdric
nimi li nanpa mute.

I thought about several alternative names and all of them make it longer and harder to say. The name "nanpa mute" (numbers multiplied) seems most useable in speech and I don't think it might commonly be used otherwise when followed by number words. So, for the system as I describe it, nanpa mute is both the name and the useage in tabulating.

Use case is in the market or at work, especially (for instance, fishing boats), where accurate counts of items might need to be communicated across a distance or with interference. The clear hand signals help there, but even a vocal method of tabulating which does not require translation into decimal seems right.

Maybe I'm wrong, not having used the common counting method long enough, but I don't see how anyone can grasp "tu tu tu tu wan" except by thinking, "one, two, three, four twos is eight plus one is nine". You almost have to convert to decimal to keep track. Or you could convert to nanpa mute,

"nanpa mute wan wan kulupu tu en wan li nanpa mute ala ala wan."

nanpa mute wan wan kulupu tu (base three 11 groups of two)
en wan (plus one)
li (equals)
nanpa mute ala ala wan (base three 100 (decimal 9))

It's important to note that this does not replace or obviate the common method. That method still works and can/should be used. Unless clearly marked as nanpa mute, all numbers are assumed to be in the common method. Only those situations where a concise and easily transmitted number for many, but a specific quantity of items is required would nanpa mute be used.

This also does not replace or even help with a credit card number, etc. Quoting arabic numerals seems the best solution for those cases, and it's what many languages do.

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:04 am
by janpona120
The name "nanpa mute" (numbers multiplied) seems most useable in speech
Well. Your system of numeration may be shortly named as "nM-notation" (numbers multiplied, nanpa mute).

"binary" coding -- "bM-notation" (1,2,4,8):
0 -- nanpa ala (0)
1 -- nanpa wan (1)
2 -- nanpa ala wan (01)
3 -- nanpa wan wan (11)
4 -- nanpa ala ala wan (001)
5 -- nanpa wan ala ala wan (1001)

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:35 pm
by janKipo
Ingenious as nanpa mute is, I still don't see any reason for adding to the tp system a complication unless it is one that solves the outstanding problems and that, it seems to me, has to be a decimal place-notation system (and probably one with standard place order). Even the binary system -- which probably has more users that the ternary -- just doesn't help where help is needed, and is still too unfamiliar to be accepted.

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:18 pm
by Baerdric
I agree that nonstandard notation as well as an unusual base are almost overwhelming obstacles.

Well... Except that toki pona folks already signed on for something unusual and nonstandard.

Personally, I like the finger numbering too much to abandon the system without further effort to advocate for it. I also see a great semaphore long distance use with right hand on head, left hand on head, both hands on head. I don't see anything dys-pona about being able to say "two fish and two sets of three fish and one set of nine fish", nanpa mute tu tu wan. It's exponentially (see what I did there?) more compact than binary, doesn't require new words, and was fun to learn, even though I usually don't like math.

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:36 pm
by Baerdric
Oh, I see, sorry. I had to re-read your post jan kipo.

Yes, absolutely does not address the problem you mention, not intended to.

I did mention that quoting arabic numbers is the real-life solution that most languages use, in my experience. Japanese and Chinese notably simply use our numbers. They have their own, that they use, but when doing business they simply use arabic numerals. In fact, my made-in-Japan translator won't easily give me (eg) 三 or 六, it almost requires that I use 3 and 6.

I mean, at some point someone might push through a translation of western numbers. I would resist that barring a strong argument in support of it. There was a word I learned from you that I can't call to mind right now, that means just putting different sounding words in the same grammatical framework. Um... lexifying? lexology? something with lex in it. relexing?

Doing that with numbers is not fun, IMO.

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:27 pm
by janKipo
Yes, "relexing"
Using hindarabic numeral is standard in tp when no one is looking or nothing else can work (dates, telephone number, etc.) but doesn't help in the language per se, since that is spoken (even though it rarely is).
I don't think anybody in tp signed up for anything this odd, but I have to say that, if they did, this is about as neat a system as they are likely to find. And as mindbending within the limits of actually working.
The point is that there are two problems to solve and it seems advisable to solve both at once if possible, as it clearly is.

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:46 pm
by Baerdric
What have folks been doing about dates? I mean, do we have named moons? Named suns?
mun suli
mun akesi
mun waso

suno esun
suno kala
suno noka

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:42 pm
by janKipo
As little as possible. People have come up with a variety of names for months and days of the week, ordinal and nominal both and names from all manner of cultural sources (indeed, months from several such sources as well). Mainly we just don't use dates and when we really have to we use more or less international decimal systems, either 9/28/16 or 28/9/16 (or, for real net freaks 16/9/28) and say we have no idea how to pronounce these. Nobody seems to use Julian days (or modified ones, or annualized versions).

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:27 pm
by janTepanNetaPelin
jan Loje o,

here is my attempt:

- tenpo suno esun nanpa wan = tenpo suno mun (Monday)
- tenpo suno esun nanpa tu = tenpo suno pi mun seli (Tuesday)
- tenpo suno esun nanpa mute = tenpo suno pi mun telo (Wednesday)
- tenpo suno esun nanpa tu tu = tenpo suno pi mun kasi (Thursday)
- tenpo suno esun nanpa luka = tenpo suno pi mun kiwen (Friday)
- tenpo suno nanpa wan pi esun ala = tenpo suno pi mun ma (Saturday)
- tenpo suno nanpa tu pi esun ala = tenpo suno suno (Sunday)

mi tawa.

Re: lukin e nanpa mute

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:07 pm
by janKipo
Not sure where you get the day names but they probably don't matter. Also, of course, the first day of the week (tenpo esun) is Sunday and, far from being tenpo suno pi esun ala, Saturday is the day when basic esun actually occurs (market day). But that is tp lore that doesn't get into the primers.