mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

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janpona120
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:52 am

it would be useful to see how you deal with the three meanings of 'jan li moku' and the nine of 'moku li pona'
I would like to do this work systemically. So, ask to write full lists of (3 and 9) meanings in English. It will help me to do it as correct as possibly. I will analyse it using different markers and modifiers: jan li moku, jan pi moku, jan lon moku... and, of course, "en X": "en pini" (to maximize to 100%), "en ala" (to minimize to 0%). For example,
  • jan .. li ala .............. telo ... e poki telo
  • a person is minimizing a quantity of water .. in a glass --
  • a person makes a zero level ....... for water . in a box for water
. So, I am waiting for your lists (3+9) to make "en pini" (to 100%) answer.
How about a compact version of "The man who came to dinner stayed a month"
pu can make a compact version, mU cannot, because of a lot of head-markers. mU can model the perfect tense.
  • "the man who came" -- "jan en pini kama".
Next words (after "en pini") will detailize: what is done (what is maximized to 100%)?
  • en pini sona -- who is totally educated
  • en pini wawa -- who is charged
A construction "en X" allows to reach a semantic wealth. Sure, you need understand a difference between: "pi" (made of) and "en" (related with). Next, "to dinner" is related with a conception: aim, goal, intention, pursuit, hunt, desire, dream... My mind gives: pini, wile, alasa, weka, tawa... I guess, "en tawa" -- "going to" reflects: as intention as desire as motion to something. For this moment we have: "jan en pini kama (describes the person)... en tawa moku (describes an intention and a direction of future behaviour)...". Also, we may analize another variants of "en tawa":
  • "en tawa sona". -- to know (to direct himself to knowledge)
  • "en tawa toki" .. -- to talk... "mi wile en tawa toki" -- I want to talk
  • "en tawa moku" -- to eat... "mi wile en tawa moku" -- I want to eat (or... I want to direct myself to food).
Of course, "en tawa moku" is not compact. Although, "mUU-syntax block" gives a semantic exactness. And now, how to translate "stayed a month"? I analyze it among three variants: "en tawa" (move to, from 0% to more), "en lon" (be staying on, active dinamic state, a running on the one place), "en awen" (be holding a, passive static state, an immobile staying) and "en pini" (be done, to 100%). Maybe, I should analize another "en X". But, for a while, I guess, "stayed" -- "en awen ma" -- is holding own current place. And a final word "a month". My variant is "no tenpo sike mun". Why? the Sun makes a round during one year, the Moon -- one month, the Earth -- one day. Therefore, we have:
  • tenpo sike suno (year -- a period for cycle for sun, during 365 days)
  • tenpo sike mun (month,28-30d)
  • tenpo sike ma (day, 24h).
"jan en pini kama en tawa moku en awen ma no tenpo sike mun". How to pronounce this long phrase to have the best perception? My proposition: to long a vowel in a word after a marker: jan... en pi-i-i-ni kama... en ta-a-a-wa moku... en a-a-awen ma... no te-e-e-npo sike mun". There are a lot of languages with short-long vowel emphasizing.
'taso' mean "but; only, except; alone; isolated; unwed" none of these seem connected to Dao in any obvious way, though I can imagine all sorts of more or less arbitrary and fantastic lines to connect them.
Dao is 'un-contact-able', that is: alone, isolated, unwed, unmarried. So, in my understanding "a way of Dao" is "nasin taso", that is "the only (right) way". Qi -- wawa ali -- a power for all things of the world. Who control the qi, has a power. From other side, "wawa kon" means "power of air", maybe, "power of soul".

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:25 am

Well, I see I have totally misunderstood your system. I don't think that the one I am coming to see is better or worse than the one I thought I saw, but it is equally incompatible with current tp and pu. It is also somewhat less interesting to me since it is more involved with vocabulary and less with syntax.

jan li moku: "Man eats", "Man is food" "Man is edible"
moku li pona "Food cures" "Food is good" "Food is a virtue"
"Eating is healing", "Eating is good" "Eating is a virtue"
"Edibility heals" "Edibility is good" "Edibility is a virtue"

I don't think of qi as the power itself but as spiritual/pneumatic presence that moves under and over the power (de). But I suspect we are just talking different languages here.

janpona120
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:23 am

it is equally incompatible with current tp and pu
  • "pu" is like to a white-black television
  • "mU" is like a colorful television
It means that pu cannot detalize "semantic pixel". Pu-world is "walo-pimeja". But, mU can many more. mU can express any "semantic color" by "en X" construction, which encodes more than 100: prefixes, conjunctions, affixes. mU is born from pu, and inherit all of its abilities. Contrary, "white-black"-pu can execute a little part of abilities of "colorful" mU-notation.
What about the two reading of 'ona li pana e toma tawa mi'? (which tp handles with commas, if at all)
  • he gives my car . . . . . . . . (ona li pana e tomo tawa mi)
  • he gives a car to mi . . . . . (ona li pana e tomo tawa (tawa) mi)
Propose to use an additional "tawa". It is a solution in pu-notation. If you want to do this, using "en tawa" (a universal marker "en" and a Universal word "tawa"):
  • he gives a house to me (ona li pana e tomo en tawa mi)
jan li moku: "Man eats", "Man is food" "Man is edible"
moku li pona "Food cures" "Food is good" "Food is a virtue"
"Eating is healing", "Eating is good" "Eating is a virtue"
"Edibility heals" "Edibility is good" "Edibility is a virtue"
Both sentences have a common linguistic templet "X li Y". And each of them has -- 9 variants of translations. Not 3+9. For example, "jan li moku": humanity eats, humanity is food, humanity is edible, and so on. Here, pu-notation mixes all variants into a colorless semantic pixel... refering to context. In this situation, and any others, mU-notation describes the world in the semantic colors. Let us try to add a color to this picture. So, "moku": eats (verb), food (noun), edible (capability, property). To express "-able", mU-notation propose a standard solution "en X":
  • Simply add "en ken", and you will have a semantic color "-able"... ("en moku" -- able to be used in any sense)
  • Simply add "en ijo", and you will have a semantic color "thing"
  • Simply add "en sin", and you will have a semantic color "repeating, process"
I suspect we are just talking different languages here
mU is an inheritor of pu. A colorful semantics is a next generation of pu. I think it is a fortune of tp.

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:50 pm

Well, telling me how wonderful it will be and outlining the theory again (I still don't get it) are nice, but I asked for sentences. So show me the 12 (or 18, but in all recorded tp there is not an occurrence that I could find of 'jan' as anything but a noun). The solution to the 'tomo tawa' join helps not at all; throwing in an extraneous (and totally inappropriate) 'en' doesn't help. (Plopping 'en' down in this random way seems to me the most obvious sign that this language has nothing to do with tp other than apparent vocabulary.) The 'ona li pana e tomo tawa tawa mi' is, of course, just a pu solution to what is not even a problem.
But ignoring what 'en' looks like, how does it function. You offer 'en ken' as "-ible" then talk about 'en moku' "able to be used in any sense". What do the two 'en's have to do with one another (if anything)? How do I say (in this idiom) "Humans are edible" ? Are the colors on the page significant grammatically or semantically or are they just devices to emphasize various points (I'm not sure what ones).
I'm not sure the sentences will clear things up, but in their absence I know I don't understand a bit of this.
(I meant the languages we were using to talk about tp and whatever, not tp and whatever themselves).

janpona120
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:58 am

I think, I should understand your point of view. And my explanations will be more clear and correct... as for you as for others of tp-community. I hope for that, therefore I do a new probe.
First of all, "in toki pona the verb 'to be' does not exist" (see: http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona ... nglish.pdf). So, any "Man is food"s are incorrect translation for any "jan li moku". It means that a back translation from tp to English is incorrect, if someone uses words like "be, is, are...".
Second. Programmers have a term "redefinition". Our situation is the same. In mU-notation "en" is not conjunction as in pu. Here, "en" is a marker with a "redefined" sense. "en" means: the marker of any kind of: prepositions, affixes and conjunctions, too. Maybe, I should choose an other word for these meanings. I have no idea for other variant.
... I asked for sentences. So show me the 12 (or 18,...
  • "Man eats" -- jan li moku e
  • "Man feeds" -- jan li pana moku e
  • "Man feeds" -- jan li pana e moku en tawa (here, "en tawa" means "to, towards")
  • "Man is food" -- jan en ijo moku (here, "en ijo" means "as a thing, like a thing")
  • "Man is edible" -- jan en ken moku (here, "en ken" means "-able to do") -- an active subject (master)
  • "Man is edible" -- jan en moku (here "en moku" means "-able to be used") -- a passive object (servant)
  • "kid is fed" -- jan lili en pini moku (here, "en pini" means "done, finished")
  • "kid is dressed" -- jan lili en pini len (here, "en pini len" means "is dressed")
  • "kid is redressed" -- jan lili en pini sin len (here, "en pini sin" means "re-done")
  • "Food cures" -- moku li pali pona e (here "pali pona" means "to make healthy")
  • "Food is good" -- moku en ijo pona (here, "en ijo pona" means "thing for a good effect")
  • "Food is a virtue" -- moku en ijo pi nasin sewi (here, "en ijo" means "thing")
  • "Eating is good" -- moku en sin pona ................. (here, "en sin" means "a process")
  • "Eating is healing" -- moku en sin pi pali pona sijelo (here, "en sin" means "a process")
  • "Eating is a virtue" -- moku en sin pi nasin sewi
  • "Edibility heals" -- moku en sin ijo li pali pona
  • "Edibility is good" -- moku en sin ijo pona ............ (here, "en sin ijo" means "a process as a thing")
  • "Edibility is a virtue" -- moku en sin ijo pi nasin sewi
Maybe, some of these definitions are wrong, because it is a draft. While I have not a full list of "en X". I do not know: what is: "en len", "en oko"...? Though, "en lili" -- diminutive, "en ike" -- pejorative, "en ko" -- conj."and". If some members of tp-forum will be able to find out answers for undefined combinations, I will be grateful.

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:13 pm

I think "is an incorrect translation" is a bit strong. The fact that tp doesn't have a copula isn't relevant to how to say the same thing in a language which does have one. So, the problem with "Man is food" as a translation of 'jan li moku' is just that there is no particular reason (in this context, i.e., none) to think that 'moku' is meant to be "food" rather than "eat" or "edible". I am understanding (insofar as I do) your system as a way to avoid that problem by having each occurrence of each general word placed in some clear semantic locale, rather than left in a vague semantic cloud. To be sure, that is the problem I am interested in and it may not be yours (or yours may involve that but go beyond, where I do not yet have an interest).
Yes, using something other than 'en' would probably be helpful in a way, since it creates unuseful vibrations. But I think I have the notion now and can damp down the dissonance.
Nice. I got to 'moku e' to assure verbal status (actually to putting a transitive verb structure in a verb slot, but that is just detail).
'jan li pana moku e' is a bit harder since you seem to not use 'li' much, so I am unsure what it means here. I would have 'jan li pana e moku (tawa ...)'
so I am wondering how you have collapsed the DO and just what 'e' now means, the more so since what would look like being needed to finish the sentence (who is being fed) is in the next example attached with 'tawa' (not sure yet why 'en') as it would be in tp. Apparently, the 'e' goes with 'moku' rather than 'pana' so what we have here is "Man is giving an act of eating(something, unstated)(to someone, unstated or introduced by 'en tawa')" Man is helping (to someone) to eat (something)." Eventually, this makes a good deal of sense and is something that tp has not thought to say in the past. Once it is pointed out, of course, it is easy to recreate: 'jan li pana e ni (tawa ...): ... li moku (e ...)' (with some work to be done, of course). Thanks.

jan en ijo moku. I guess that 'en' obviates the need for 'li' (although it is not clear just why), In tp 'ijo moku' might be any of an eating thing, an edible thing or something pertaining to food (a stove, say). Presumably, the role of 'en' here is to narrow that range to the object noun meaning of 'moku' (or any other word, for that matter). But it is not clear why the whole 'en... moku' is a predicate rather than just a modifier and the whole mean "a food person (I assume 'en' makes a right grouping at least two words beyond 'en', cf. standard 'pi'), a person somehow related to food: cook, waiter, grocer, restaurateur, etc.
'edible' is not a very good translation for 'en ken moku' which means "able to eat" (if I understand this at all), not "able to be eaten", i.e., "edible".
The use of 'en' alone to create passive possibility seems like a shift in roles when viewed from the outside. How to it work from the inside?
'en pini' is perfect passive, apparently, so 'en' seems to be the passive element now. this still doesn't clearly fit with the earlier usage. And, of course, it is not the perfective but the perfected that is passive, so one would expect the 'en' to attach to 'moku' (and 'len') rather than 'pini'. Or perhaps this is reflexive rather than passive; even this system is not clear. Just ind=cidentally, it is a virtue of this system that it does provide at least some sorts of passives, which tp sorely lacks.
'li pali e pona e' looks to be just tp 'pona e', which is generally not problematic, so I see not advances (though there may be more complex cases where the advantages become clear). In this set, 'moku' is always assumed to mean "food", without a marker ('en ijo'?) And in the next sections it is similarly assumed to mean "eating" and "edibility". How do you know which is which?
"Food is good" is mean to get the adjectival sense of 'pona', not either the object noun sense ("a good thing") although that isn't too bad, or the abstract noun (goodness). The second sentence in this group works. The third (which aimed at the object noun sense) seems to have gone astray and gotten another notion altogether (my fault, I shouldn't have used "virtue"). And again, why are these not just long noun phrases rather than sentences?
'en sin' seems odd for "process" ('en awen' or even 'en pali' seem more natural). And shouldn't it go on 'moku' rather than 'pona'? (I don't yet quite understand how these pieces fit together).
'edibility' is not a process but a potentiality and not a thing except that it is head of a noun phrase so I don't get the whole 'moku en sin ijo' bit. But I do welcome the return of clear subject-predicate form to the sentences. Too bad it only last for the first sentence in the last set.
So, things are a bit clearer and, aside from a fundamental incompatibility with tp, rather an intersting development. Some of the details are questionable and some are still just obscure, but at least it is basically intelligible in outline. The grammar needs some working through, though, to see if it all coheres. I suspect that, with a little tinkering, it will.
I

janpona120
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:38 pm

"li"-marker has two proto-semantic atoms: "to be" ("A := B", nomination) and "to do" ("A -> B", action). They are almost identical, because, if you have a name "king", you behave yourself as a king. If you have a name "father", you behave yourself as a father. If you have a name "rocket", you behave yourself as a rocket...etc. "pu" mixes these two meanings. And it gives a permanent internal semantic conflict (nomination vs. action, re-naming vs. re-acting). I guess, it will be good for tp to use a fit marker for each case:

"is" -- if you want to nominate something ("man is good", "man is driver", "man is married")
"li" -- if you want to activate something ("man eats", "man feeds", "man thanks")

Evaluate an exactness of expression, if to use both markers (both proto-semantic atoms):

1) "ona is olin mi" -- "she is my love -- (nomination: is)
2) "ona li olin e mi" -- "she loves me" -- (action: li)
3) "olin ona li ali lon mi" -- "her love lives into me" -- (action: li)
4) "olin ona is pona" -- "her love is good" -- (nomination: is)
5) "ona is musi ala" -- "it is not funny" -- (nomination: is)
6) "ona li musi" -- "it makes fun" -- (action: li)

If you want to express the nomination, use the marker "is" ("jan is pona" -- a good boy). And, when you wish to underline the action, insert the marker "li" ("jan li pona -- the boy makes a good). Such a separation will help tp to become clear semantically. I believe that tp can become a mediator, like Esperanto, in poly-linguistic communities:

nomination: "la donna è bella" -> "jan meli ni is lukin pona" -> "moteris yra graži"
action: "die Frau singt" -> "jan meli ni li toki kalama" -> "la femme chante"

By will of tp-community, in the visible future tp will be able to translate more complex meanings between speakers from any country. First steps to this goal you see above: italian -> tp -> lithuanian, germ -> tp -> fr.
so I am wondering how you have collapsed the DO /.../(who is being fed) /.../
mUU-format contains: m-marker (li: verb), 1st-U is a lead action, 2nd-U is its shade.

li "pana moku" -- "food-giving act" -- feeding (here: "pana" is "action", "moku" is "shade")
li "pana mani" -- "money-giving act" -- investing
li "pana sona" -- "knowledge-giving act" -- teaching

Now about difference between "mU" and "mUU". If a verb slot has only word, it means an act without aim. You may use the thing for any purpose you want (store, catapult, trade, art, ritual...) But, if a verb slot has two words like "pana moku", it means an act with aim. So, what is a mission for food? To be eaten. What is a mission for money? To be spent. What is a mission for knowledge? To be known. The 2nd-U in a verb slot defines a mission. Here is still one way to analyse the sentence "jan li pana moku e ona", to understand: who is being fed? Let us devide this sentence on a left part and a right part. The left part "jan li pana moku" means "man is a food-giver". So, from the left side we have the food-giver, the man who makes a food-giving act. It is his mission. Now we shift our focus on an object: on the right part of the sentence "moku e ona". What is a mission of the food-eater? "to eat a food". It is just the right part ("moku e ona") of our sentence (jan li pana moku e ona). The word "moku" is related as with a "left" provider as with a "right" receiver. In whole, the sentence "jan li pana moku e ona" describes a trip of food (from a hand to a stomach).

Finally, compare three examples to see semantic flexibility, which tp can express (mU vs. mUU vs. mUUU):

mU: "jan li pana e moku tawa ona" (here, feeding is one of variants) may be fed: 0-100%
mUU: "jan li pana moku e ona" (here, feeding is embedded in a verb) must be fed: 100%
mUUU: "jan li pana moku kili e ona" -- this is about 100%-vegetarian feeding
'en pini' is perfect passive, apparently
I would like to change "en"-marker on a new trial variant "jen", because, you are right, "en" is too close with pu. So, jen-marker from now. "jen pini" means that something is finished (maximized on to 100%). And:
"jan lili jen pini moku" -- "kid is foodily maximized on to 100%... stomach is filled", i.e. "kid is fed".
In this set, 'moku' is always assumed to mean "food", without a marker ('en ijo'?). And in the next sections it is similarly assumed to mean "eating" and "edibility". How do you know which is which?
Almost all languages are conventional, including tp. I guess, by default "moku" means "food". If we want to point some feature, we add an affix: "jen ijo", "jen awen", "jen ken" or any other like affixes of Esperanto.

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:02 am

So, to replace the neutral 'li', which merely marks the dvision between subject and predicate and leaves all the semantic stuff to the immediately following (perhaps honorary) verb, you offer two separators, with semantic content, one a copula (identity or inclusion -- why not separate these?) the other one that retrofits the subject as an agent. That does solve some problems in tp (and would solve more with the third mark) without complicating the syntax significantly. It does not help in the modification and head noun problems, of course, but that is, I gather, the job of 'jen', which does complicate the syntax a bit.
I am not sure about the interlinguistic use of tp (see also the guy who wants to use it as a way to learn foreign languages), since I suspect that the differences in syntax will make a mishmash of cases beyond the most simple (tp SVO, as are German and French; how will it work with a SOV language or one even more aberrant, say OSV or thoroughly AN to tp's NA?) Of course, we can never get the means to try, since all such projects seems stuck on bilingual work.
I still don't understand just how mU grammar works, so I probably miss the point of some of the examples, seeing them only as bad tp.

janpona120
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:17 am

That does solve some problems in tp (and would solve more with the third mark)
It is a question: has tp a full set of markers or tp has some part of the perfect set? If in the word set were added such words as esun, alasa, etc., why we should be thinking that the marker set is complete? I am trying to investigate it, and to polish "nena lili" lon "nasin toki pi tp".
It does not help in the modification and head noun problems, of course, but that is, I gather, the job of 'jen', which does complicate the syntax a bit.
I think, these complications are temporal for a stage of developing.
I am not sure about the interlinguistic use of tp
I talk about "poly-linguistic communities", where tp will be used directly. Each will use just SVO. Each switches its brain "in tp-mode" and communicate with others by tp-channel. If you talk about "inter-linguistic use", I am sure, tp can do it for everyday needs even now. It is out of special terms, of course. It is not an area, where tp can be strong.
I still don't understand just how mU grammar works, so I probably miss the point of some of the examples, seeing them only as bad tp.
I see here a restriction of my ability to explain clear. :) So, we may probe a method of micro-steps:

1. "mU-notation" extends the vocabulary by universal words -- each a word has a meaning in any part of speech. By this we may describe (100*100) 10.000 meanings. For example, "akesi" -- extravagant (adj), to kink (verb). "jan akesi" -- a punk (an extravagant person). "jan li akesi" -- a man kinks. "jan pipi" -- a social insect, "jan ko" -- a social dust ("ko jan" -- a crowd). Contrary, "pu" has semantic limitations, because some words are presented in one or two part of speech.

What do you think about "ilo noka", "ilo sama noka", "ilo jen noka", "ilo pi noka"? I think, that mU distributes meanings more accurately. As for me, "ilo noka" is a transport, because legs are used usually for relocation. As a verb, "noka" means an action, which is made by legs. In "pu" the "noka" is not a verb. Therefore, pu uses "tomo tawa" for a car. In mU it means "house for mobility" -- hotel, because usually the house is immobile and all around are mobile (cars, people, clouds).

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:07 pm

Well, what combinations become idioms and what idioms they become is largely accidental from an external view. 'tomo awa' might have come to mean "hotel" but it didn't. Similarly, 'noka' could mean "walk", but we have settled on 'tawa noka' instead (this one subject to change, no doubt). The limits on the possible are just the limits of the grammar. Every tp word(with the usual exceptions) can occur in any role and in each of these roles can draw on a variety of semantic content, Further, any combination of two words can draw on a variety of underlying structures, so the possibilities from 120 words is fairly enormous even for just two-word combinations. But trying to plot them in advance is both inefficient (many will never be used) abnd unlikely to succeed (many will not catch on). Evolution is slow but works pretty well.


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