mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

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janpona120
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mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:24 am

The basic version of tp may have markers in any position: start, middle, finish. I propose to probe a new type of sintax:
  • mU-notation uses only head-position for markers.
  • Universal words follow markers.
A sentence is a combination of: markers (o-no, e-en, a-la, li-pi) and Universal words (each U-word can have any morphology: noun, verb t/i, adjective, adverb, adverbial phrase, type of conjunction...). Formally it may be described as: mU, mUU, mUUU (for separated blocks of sentence) and mUmUUmU (for a whole sentence). You say: la tenpo (adverbial part), li moku (verb), e kili (direct object)... no jan (noun). Now about U-words. Single U-word gives about 100 combinations, doubled (UU-words) -- 10,000 semantic combinations, tripled (UUU-words) -- 1,000,000 meanings. Put markers and you will have a few million meanings. So, mU-format gives about:
  • 100-questions: _________________ seme tenpo (when?), seme jan (who?), seme tan (why?)
  • 100-conjunctions/prepositions: _____ en tenpo (when), ___ en jan (who), ___en tan (because of)
mi jo e anu: li moku e pan en anu no kili
I have a choice to eat a grain or a fruit
Some sentences will be changed on their equivalents:
  • mi olin e sina -- I love you (basic, pu-notation)
  • mi olin e sina -- my love is you (mU-notation)
  • ...
  • mi moku e kili -- my food is a fruit (contrary, "moku mi" -- food for me)
  • moku mi e kili -- food for me is a fruit
Also, some pu-meaning need cosmetic correction. For example, kulupu (structured group, organism, including social, technological, etc.):
  • kulupu jan -- society
  • kulupu sona -- science (math -- kulupu sona nanpa, psychology -- kulupu sona pilin)
  • kulupu musi -- culture (art) (... kiwen -- sculpture, ... tomo -- architecture, ... kalama -- music)
____________________________________________________________________________________
* mi pilin kama e suli pu en insa no kulupu jan -- my hope is a raising for pu in a human society.
_ mi pilin lon e ni -- my belief is this (my feeling for reality)
_ mi pilin olin e ali -- my love is an universum

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:52 am

Well, tp is NA, so 'tenpo seme', 'jan seme', etc.
That aside, I am very unclear what these categories are and how they will function
'en' has to go between items, even when it is primary, so 'en tenpo' and the like make no sense standing alone (and, of course, it doesn't make relative clause heads as suggested here).
From the point of view of a tidy grammar, a marker (which always disappears) for Subject would be handy in some cases, though hard to justify, since it NEVER appears.
Using 'anu' for "choice" seems a good idea, except that it gets into confusion with the two usual functions of 'anu'. 'wile' is overworked but seems t function in this rule adequately: 'mi ken wile e ni: mi moku e pan, anu mi moku e kili.
The rest is just too non-tp to be intelligible in this context, though I think it might make a viable language eventually.

janpona120
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:02 am

    Well, tp is NA, so 'tenpo seme', 'jan seme', etc.
Sorry, I do not understand what is "NA". May you add some detailed explanations for this sentence? For a while, I guess NA is "noun-adjective". If it is true, I can confirm: tp has a "noun-adjective" syntax. mU-notation extends this format to "marker-noun-adjective" and others "marker-X" types of syntax blocks. You always can select a group of: a noun, a verb, a preposition, etc. Only looking up a head marker. Now about "tenpo seme" and "jan seme". These combinations have valid meanings. Compare two variants:
  • lon tenpo li seme e mi -- the (present) time asks me (here, the time is some independent thinking beeng)
  • lon li tenpo seme e mi -- true it is time for question for me
For example, we have a situation: a company speaker presents a new product of the company. A next, he tells journalists to ask their questions: "tenpo seme", he says, -- time for questions. You may see that tp has good potential to permeat even into a high-business. :D It is not a joke, though it sounds fun. I am sure that tp is the powerest linguistic tool for humanity of edition of XXI-century. tp is a wunder-kind, and we are able to uncover its talent. So, mU-notation makes a first probe to do this. Next, who is "jan seme"? Obviously, it is a "person for question" -- questioner. In our presentation the journalists are questioners ("jan seme"). It is very simple for understanding and using. When I ask you, I am "jan seme". When you ask me, you are "jan seme".
en' has to go between items,
It is right in pu-grammar. mU-notation uses "en" as a head of prepositional group. "en tenpo", "en ko", "en luka", "en kili"... any variant has a strong narrow meaning to express any semantic: up, down, over, in, of, behind... 100 variants. Imagine such a situation. There is a line of people: en John en Mary en Bob en Rob... Here, first "en" is a John's hand, second one is a Mary's hand... You may imagine a line of elefants, where "en" is an elefant's trunk. To express a meaning "between" we should try to select one of 100-tp. May be "en insa"? May be "en suno" (because sun always is centered)? May be "en poki" (because a box can be closed)?
Using 'anu' for "choice" seems a good idea, except that it gets into confusion with the two usual functions of 'anu'.
Markers distribute meanings, including for "anu": "no anu" -- a noun "choice", "li anu" -- a verb "to choose", "en anu" -- a preposition-conjunction "or"... "pi anu", "e anu", "o anu", "a anu". Remember, mUUU-notation can express 1,000,000 semantic tones without confusions.
wile' is overworked but seems t function in this rule adequately: 'mi ken wile e ni: mi moku e pan, anu mi moku e kili.
"mi ken wile" (in mU-notation) means "my ability of wishing". Contrary, a person in depression (temporarily) has not ability of wishing (loving, dreaming). "mi moku e pan" -- my food is grains. Also, "mi moku e kili" -- my food is fruits. And, if you add "en" to "anu", you receive "en anu" -- a clear "or". Let me propose a sentence in mU-notation: I can eat grains or fruits
  • mi li ken moku e pan en anu no kili -- (here are four markers: ..... li..... e..... en..... no.....)
"mi li ken" means "I can"... contrary: "mi ken" -- "my ability", "no ken" -- "ability", "pi ken" -- "able"... Of course, "mi" (pu-notation) and "mi li" (mU-notation) may be used as equivalents. Each notation has own nich:
  • pu- notation -- to say fast to understand slow (short phrases, wide meanings)
  • mU-notation -- to say slow to understand fast (long phrases, narrow meanings)

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:53 am

Well, it is now clear that, word shape apart, this is a language totally different from tp. It does seem to help solve one problem in tp, but the context required makes that solution inapplicable to tp. It looks like an interesting language, but I wonder if a tp forum is the right place to advocate it and develop it.

janpona120
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:56 am

Well, it is now clear that, word shape apart, this is a language totally different from tp.
Of course, a caterpillar is totally different from a butterfly, though they have an identical "genetic code". More over, mU-notation follows the Taoism phylosophy, like tp, in a step-by-step manner: as in tao as in qi as in yin-yang as in ten thousand things, that is within all basic concepts of the Taoism. In my opinion, the proposed upgrade may procreate the butterfly effect in tp-community... in a positive sense.
It looks like an interesting language, but I wonder if a tp forum is the right place to advocate it and develop it.
:D Sonja had made a special section "jan nasa li wile ante e toki pona", where she had written:
As the inventor of the Toki Pona language and author of its official website, I have a very specific vision for my creative work. While I am open to ideas and suggestions, I unfortunately don't have the extra time to discuss and give attention to everyone's ideas of how to "improve" Toki Pona according to their differing scopes and creative visions.
There will always be people who will want to adapt Toki Pona in one way or another to better suit their personal goals. Of course you are welcome to invent such derivative works if you follow the Toki Pona website's licence. I have created this forum jan nasa li wile ante e toki pona as a playground for these people's ideas.
I do not use this section, because it is for "jan nasa", no "jan sona sin". Of course, if tp-community has an intention for self-conservation, it is clear, because a current totem of tp is a caterpillar. This situation tells me that next stage of the language will be a cocon. And third stage will be a butterfly. I see this stage, and work for this. So, I am planning to publish an article about sM-notation, which can gift wings for tp-butterfly. And I hope that tp will have a real linguistic freedom to express anything (to fly everywhere).

jan li kasi kule
toki jan li pipi kule kon
suwi la li suli
mama ali ni li lon

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:12 am

Unfortunately, language is inherently conservative -- even constructed languages once they come to be used by a community. There is a growing body of texts that have to be taken into account at each step: does the change affect these texts, rendering them irredeemably obsolete, unintelligible. If so, the change will not be adopted, however brilliant it may be in absolute terms. So, there are unconscious restrictions even on the freedom of jan nasa ("not ordinary people", not "crazy people") to propose effective changes.
We should probably have a session of Daoism some time since I don't quite see the connection between it and your proposals.

janpona120
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:57 am

language is inherently conservative -- even constructed languages once they come to be used by a community.
I agree with you. Therefore, I propose the cosmetic changes. mU-notation executes the main principle as tp as Daoism. Are you agree with me, if I tell you that the main principle of them is: a simplicity? I hope you will say "yes". And I think the simplicity can provide... a total unification. That is, all variants use the single templet. The only key for all locks. So, Dao is the universal key to anything in the world. And, if you have comprehended the Dao, you can understand anything. Like this, tp follows Dao, if it has an embedded simplicity. First of all in syntax. Pu proposes a lot of templets: for markers (before, between, after), for questions (moku ala moku, ni:...), for types of words (nouns, modifiers), for meanings (wide sense -- wile, narrow sense -- nanpa). By this reason, tp is so far from Dao. "nasin nasa li nasin ike". Instead of it, mU-notation is the only key to whole syntax of tp. And, therefore, mU-notation directs tp on a way of the Dao. "nasin taso li nasin Tao". Or "nasin toki pi toki pona li nasin Tao" --" a syntax of tp is a way of Tao". It will be so, if tp-community will apply the only (Dao) templet for any syntax and semantic needs of tp.
jan nasa ("not ordinary people", not "crazy people")
"not ordinary people" is "jan akesi" -- eccentric, curious, odd, queer. And, "jan pipi" -- ordinary, trivial, shallow...
We should probably have a session of Daoism some time since I don't quite see the connection between it and your proposals.
For me it is very interesting to know your vision on: how does tp follow the way of Dao? I know that jan Sonja was inspired by the Taoism, and had embedded this philosophy into tp. I see it there... deep deep inside. And as I had written above: the prime principle of Taoism is an unification -- the only key for all locks -- "nasin taso" -- Dao is it. My proposition (mU-notation) provides Dao into tp-syntax, making it absolutely regular, unificated and simplified. Of course, I am very interested to hear about relations between tp and Taoism from... real followers like: you, loteni, and other warLords of tp-civilization.

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:11 am

Well, I have never been very clear on the relation between tp and Daoism. Despite books like Mysticism and Logic, and Alice, a mystical viewpoint seems to provide little guidance for a language, since one of its major points is just that words inevitably falsify preceptions. Simplicity here is just not making distinctions and thus not forcing things. Grammar is all about distinctions and rules and without them, communication beyond a certain level becomes impossible, But tp is certainly well beyond that level, so it needs rules, fine distinctions, categorizations -- all the things that Daoism isn't.

All that aside, if your system can generate all or most of the accepted sentences of tp with the same meanings, even if different syntax, then it is worth looking at within the tp context. If it can't (and your examples tend to point in this direction), then not. On the first alternative, it would be especially telling if you could provide better explanations for cases that are accepted but uncomfortable,

janpona120
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:48 am

I have never been very clear on the relation between tp and Daoism.
Do you know a tp-word with a meaning "Dao"? And more, can you distribute the Taoism's concepts on tp-vocabulary? I ask you about it, because you are very experienced in tp-vocabulary. So, I guess, maybe you know how to translate on tp next concepts: dao (tao), qi, yin-yang, heaven-human-earth, ten thousand things. For example, in my opinion, a word "taso" is equivalent of the word "tao" as in writing as in meaning.
Grammar is all about distinctions
English grammar has very big difficulty: irregular verbs, etc. Millions of people dream to have a "regular grammar" to learn English... easyly. But, it has huge vague distinctions. tp has the syntax difficulty, too. Of course, its syntax is simpler than English one. So, mU-notation minimizes distinctions in tp, and makes it more comfortable for learning and speaking. Let us compare a common text in both notations? You translate some text in pu-notation, and I do the same in mU-notation. And finaly, we will have compared our translations by next parameters:
  • syntax regularity
  • semantic exactness
Pratice is the best way to define the best solution in any situation. Of course, you may propose your test to know:
  • what is better for tp: pu- or mU-notation?
it would be especially telling if you could provide better explanations for cases that are accepted but uncomfortable,
I like it. May you point an uncomfortable case (one or more)? I would be very glad to exam my skill.

janKipo
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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:30 pm

Since I am being inspired by your work to write a think piece about how to deal with common tp problems, it would be useful to see how you deal with the three meanings of 'jan li moku' and the nine of 'moku li pona' (neither of which tp can deal with at all). What about the two reading of 'ona li pana e toma tawa mi'? (which tp handles with commas, if at all). How about a compact version of "The man who came to dinner stayed a month" 'jan li kama tawa moku. jan ni li awen lon tenpo mun' or possibley 'jan pi kama pi tawa moku li awen lon tenpo mun'? I have some idea -- derived from what I understand you to be saying -- about these but it would help me to understand you and to round out my own ideas to see your versions.

Dao: nasin
qi: kon
yin-yang meli-mije (I confess that after 60 years, I still can never remember which is which)
heaven-man -earth: sewi-jan -ma
ten thousand things: ali (some would say just 'mute')

'taso' mean "but; only, except; alone; isolated; unwed" none of these seem connected to Dao in any obvious way, though I can imagine all sorts of more or less arbitrary and fantastic lines to connect them.


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