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Toki Pona Forums • Who of us is really a toki pona master? - Page 6
Page 6 of 6

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:47 am
by janpona120

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:40 am
by janKipo
Unfortunately, there are no such tests in any organized sense. At best, you get people who comment on other people and either praise or criticize them and people who others look to for advice. This may be as much a matter of personality as of expertise (cf. politics) and so not a good guide for what you want. It is, however, pretty much how languages work, aside from autocratic systems like "the creator's word is final" or the Academy (neither of which actually work all that well).

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:49 am
by janpona120

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:31 pm
by janKipo
Well, I don't much like your translation, but that is largely personal style and viewpoint (which will always be a problem with standardized tests).
'ike la' "unfortunately" is standard.
'sama ni' "this identity, this similarity" is possible for "this sort" but both 'nasin ni' and 'kulupu ni' seem closer to the point (you may disagree).
'utala sona' "knowledge battle" is nice for a showdown contest, but misses the point of a standardized test against an impartial form. I don't have a suggestion for a good expression for that, though an old list offers 'lukin sona', based on 'lukin (wawa)' for "examine".
'lon ala insa ali' means "are not among everything" which seems to mean just "don't exist". (Note that his can't be analyzed another way -- as your notes suggest -- because 'insa' is a noun and so does not attach to 'lon ala' other than as a prepositional object. Were it not for the 'pi' following, it could be an adverb, giving "is not totally internally'at", butthat seems even further from the point.)
At this point, I suspect the English is getting in the way of the sense, in that "in any organized sense" probably actually modifies the subject, not the predicate. But, in any case, "in any organized sense" is more clearly 'kepeken sona nasin" or something along that line.
So, 'ike la nasin ni pi lukin sona, pi kepeken sona nasin li lon ala.'
Yours is (for a totally failing grade for me) "Unfortunately, this identity of wise battles is not completely in the middle of group knowledge."

"A warrior gets knowledge by the achievements of many battles." Nice.

'utala lawa' looks like either legal fights or a battle involving heads. 'utala open' is either an initial fight or an open (to all?) battle. As informal first guesses.

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:46 am
by janpona120

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:30 am
by janKipo
Chess is still about winners and losers, not about competence and incompetence directly.
Sonja says 'pona e' for "evalutate", but that seems to raise a bunch of issues. Beyond that, I have no suggestions,
'lon ala insa' still ends in a noun, so what follows it has to be a modifier of that noun, not a new noun phrase (unless a 'pi' intervenes).
I'm not sure what organism have to do directly with "organized", but I have no idea how to translate "organism", the issue simply has not come up. But neither has "organized". How an organism is near to a group is not clear to me either, nor how a group is near to "organized", since groups can be totally disorganized. Mato's guess about 'sona nasin' is not bad, though 'nasin sona' has also been used. oth words get used for "theory" and "organized study" and the like. But the static-dynamic contrast is interesting.
I do wish someone else looked at the Forums from time to time, but it rarely happens. Maybe loteni will turn up. Or Lope.

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:21 am
by janpona120

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:22 pm
by janKipo
I don't see what fractals have to d with it, except, I suppose, it is the same all the way up and all the way down. But the point about evaluations is just that they are not winners and losers; everybody might get an A (or an F). So what you say about "evaluate" -- aside from the stuff about proto-semantics (whatever that is) has some point: it is about scoring against a standard. "Standard" is very likely 'nasin' and scores tend to become nanpa eventually, so 'nanpa nasin', "number according to a standard" seems in the right area, at least. And, of course, we need what the standard is for, "quality" , 'pona', so 'nanpa pi nasin pona;.
But groups don't have to have leaders or heads or tails or even definite parts; they're just things somehow set off from ohers. To be sure, most of the important ones do have some or all these added details, but that makes them more than groups.
Inversion changes sense clearly with directional concepts, like 'ilo', but less obviously for other cases. 'soweli moku' can be the same as 'moku soweli' (though also very different, of course) and I expect the same applies to 'kasi' (more so, since we don't talk as much about food for plants). The fact is that modification is so vague that almost anything is possible. 'moku tomo' is usually home made food or house specialties, for example (never fuel or electricity, though I can see why it might be).
I don't get the last bit, but it looks nice.

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:58 am
by janpona120

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:38 am
by janpona120