Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Discuss any other topic in here.
Diskutu ĉiujn aliajn temojn ĉi tie.
janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:18 am

I think, if someone is a tp-master, he can give a definition for each of tp-word using only the tp-words.

For example:

jan (li sama e) soweli sewi -- human is an upper animal
tomo (li sama e) poki ali -- home/house is a box for life


Propose to tp-community to make an auto-dictionary (or pu-dic). It gives us a few splendid results:

1. Everybody will know how strong tp-master he is... or is he at all?
2. Education process will go faster, because each word has a mnemonic relation
3. An official online-exam will give us a just number of tp-speakers (level one)

Please, write here your versions of tp-words using only tp-words. It will be a great job, which may open a "sewi" future for tp.
___________________________________________________________
P.S.: of course, I would like to receive a pu-dic of Sonja's version too.

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janKipo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:44 am

Of course,a real dictionary of the sort proposed is impossible, since it would mean that the words had no reference outside themselves. But an ordinary dictionary of this sort might be handy. However, there are a few problems
1. Any given tp word has a variety of meaning in different context. Should we try to list them all or try for one definition that covers them all or just go for the most common cases?
2. Who decides that a proposed definition is a good one? Both of the examples given have obvious flaws, both in accuracy and intelligibility, but are they good enough (for whatever purpose is intended)?
3. Is the ability to create such definitions a real test of mastery of tp or even of its vocabulary (not the most important thing, probably)?
4. Recursion (back to question 1.) When a word is defined in one place and used in another definition, does its later use have toa gree with its earlier definition?

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:49 am

there are a few problems
1. Any given tp word has a variety of meaning in different context. Should we try to list them all or try for one definition that covers them all or just go for the most common cases?

This is not the problem. This is a task for us, if we really want to develop this language. And your questions should be put as a road-map to do tp strong and effective. Of course, default-dictionary must contain definitions for primary meanings. A wide-dictionary -- a list with all meanings.
2. Who decides that a proposed definition is a good one?

Who decides that a tp is a good one? Definitely, tp-community. If tp-speakers will say: "your def. is smart, I like it, I understand it, I will use it", such definitions are right.
3. Is the ability to create such definitions a real test of mastery of tp or even of its vocabulary (not the most important thing, probably)?

If someone can drive a car, he can, he is a car-professional, he is a master. Also he has a driving license. But, when we talk about tp, we have not solid parameters to see: who is who? Personally you, can you say about yourself: I am tp-master or name someone, who, in your opinion, is tp-master? I guess, for a while, tp-community has no one in a master level.

Using tp-words, I may define three levels of tp:

1. "mu"-level. tp-members speak like an infant (beeh-beeh, maah-maah)
2. "kalama"-level. tp-members speak like a teenager (a lot of noise, a little sense)
3. "toki"-level. tp-members speak like an adult (educated, creative)

If we will have done the auto-dictionary, we will grow. I would like to see here propositions of tp-speakers (who really loves tp) for this dictionary. Let me present next two defs:

luka (li sama e) sijelo pana -- part of body to give...
noka (li sama e) sijelo tawa -- part of body to go

________________________________________________________________________
Tawa pu la ona li ken ala ken li pana e nimi sona?
Who is able to give a definition for tp-words?

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janKipo » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:10 am

Just a practical problem: getting tpers to agree on anything or even comment on mot things is very difficult. There are a few regular commenters -- of varying value -- but the vast majority do nothing evident (there are over a thousand subscribers to the Facebook page, for example. but maybe a dozen regular and a scattering of one-time contributors.) So the various definitions get accepted or rejected (or left in limbo) by a small, not particularly representative group, who are, admttedly, also the most frequent users of the language. This group -- which does not include Sonja, by the way -- has been behind most of the changes in tp that are not directly the result of a Sonja fiat and of the resistance to several Sonja fiats as well.

About the proposed definitions

'sijelo tawa' is a body which moves, so pretty much any living being counts. It is an important part of the difference between 'noka' and 'luka', though. However, the point in 'noka' is that it moves the body 'wan pi tawa sijelo' for starters, though requiring probably some added details ('palisa') and disambiguation ('tawa sijelo' is verb+ obj, not prep + NP).

'sijelo pana' similarly means "emitting body" which is very broad. Further, the essential thing about luka is more about grasping and pulling thing inward than sending them out (wings are a problem, of course). 'kipisi pi kama jo' , say, for starters.

'soweli sewi' requires the biological hierarchy be spatialized, which it is not obviously in tp. This looks like flying cows or mountain goats.

'poki ali' "all boxes" or "boxes for everything" (or "a whole box") tp doesn't have a good word for "life" in the obvious intended meaning here, nor does it really fit, since tomo can contain anything; their nature is to have been constructed and enclose a space (so 'poki' is good).

Now, any attempted definition is going to be subject to this kind of nit-picking. The interesting question is when some term gets accepted despite that, as most of the common idioms have been.

Also, as a heuristic matter, the tp definitions should stand on their own in tp, without an English (etc.) gloss (these don't, nor, I suspect, would most idioms).

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:29 am

'soweli sewi' requires the biological hierarchy be spatialized, which it is not obviously in tp. This looks like flying cows or mountain goats.

You are right "this looks". But, if we test it, then we will have correct view of things. So "mountain goats" must contain a tp-word for mountain -- nena. "soweli nena" is an animal for mountain. Next, "flying cows" must contain a tp-word for bird (fly) -- waso. That is a correct combination for "an animal for flying" is "soweli waso". Also for me is interesting examples from: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.lan ... ona/page=7: "... mi wile lukin e sijelo sewi pona."

So, "soweli sewi" is an animal for sky. When I analyze "soweli sewi", I put "jan sewi" (god) near. And it gives: a human and a god. Let us probe to put together "god" and "flying cows". What variant is more beautiful for you (for tp)?

I am very glad that tp on fb has over a thousand subscribers. And is there at least on person who can make the auto-dictionary? Can you? I am not a tp-master. So I would like to have a ready list with auto-definitions. It is very discouraging for me that no one of tp-community can make this primitive job.
______________________________________________________
ali la pilin ike o. ( oh, my gosh, I can't believe it, it's impossible)
pu li pan. mi nasin e tan.

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janKipo » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:33 pm

Well, as the history of such dictionaries shows, making a same-language dictionary is hardly a primitive task, but rather a very sophisticted one requiring a considerable amount of knowledge and a sensitivity to a variety of factors, social, economic, political, and personal. Avoiding metaphors seems to be essential to success here and it is that that makes me question 'soweli sewi' Admittedly mountain goats are better with 'nena' and flying pigs ith 'waso' or 'tawa kon', but that leave Hathor and Nanda all the other divine animals and yaks and the like that are high altitude without being mountain-related. If there really is a reason for doing this (I'm not sure there is) then 'soweli toki' and 'soweli olin' are the two that hit most of the crucial things about 'jan' (though miss the great apes completely).

Thanks for the reference, btw; I don't have any of it in my files.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:24 am

... making a same-language dictionary is hardly a primitive task.

Yes! This task is hard... without a real mastery. The auto-dictionary will have only 120 words. It will not take long time, if this job will do a tp-master. We (tp-community) weren't even trying to do this. Why we are saying: it's impossible, it's foolish, it's hard? Let us try. You make 10 words. I make 10 word... and others will add, too. We correct each other, and finaly this job will be done during a month.
Hathor and Nanda all the other divine animals

"divine" refers to illusion, fancy, immagination. And for this purpose tp has a word "musi" (art = illusion, fancy, creativity). "musi" (unofficial, virtual) stands in opposition to "sewi" (official, real). A human is real, so it is "soweli sewi". A divine animal is unreal, so it is "soweli musi". This meaning is default. As a variant: "soweli musi sewi" -- a virtual animal for sky.

"mi la" (in my opinion), here is a simple rule:
1. basic terms are expresed by single word (suno, meli...)
2. extended terms -- by double words (tomo many, jan pali...)
3. out-of-limit terms -- by triple words (jan pali ma, pipi musi sewi -- for example, scarab)

So, it is good practice to use three words for divine animals.
'soweli toki' and 'soweli olin'

"soweli toki" -- an animal for talking. Agree, this definition is good for "jan". "soweli olin" -- an animal for love (a pet -- "soweli tomo olin"). In fact, lovers use gentle names for each other: little-fish, little-cat... :P
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Propose a draft list for the auto-dictionary:
akesi (li sama e) soweli ike... an underdone understaffed animal. (a predator - soweli moli, soweli utala)
ala (li sama e) lon ante... another reality
ilo (li sama e) ijo pali
kalama (li sama e) mu musi... (here "mu" is a sound of nature, "mu musi" -- artificial sounds)
kasi (li sama e) moku soweli
kon (li sama e) jo sewi.. a thing for sky
len (li sama e) weka selo... an external skin
moku (li sama e) ijo wawa... a thing for power
moli (li sama e) pini ali... a final for life
nasin (li sama e) linja pali... a line for activity
oko (li sama e) sijelo lukin... a part of body to see (to read)
olin (li sama e) pilin ali... a feeling for life
selo (li sama e) awen sijelo... a keeper for a body
sitelen (li sama e) selo lukin
telo (li sama e) ma kala
wawa (li sama e) nanpa suli
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May be you have another variants for these words, and can add your versions. So, write them. Be active (lon pali o)

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janKipo » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:35 am

So, problem number one (on a new list): the modification relation is totally general; 'xy' means an x somehow related to y. given that x and y are themselves very general, this means that 'xy' can mean just about anything in a very broad area. For example, you offer 'moku soweli' for 'kili'. But, in ordinary circumstances, 'moku soweli' would be used for meat or, admittedly, animal feed (typically grain or meat scraps, depending on the animal). I think that, if these definitions are to be useful at all, they need to be expository: 'soweli li moku e ona' for example (although, of course, waso and kala and pipi and akesi do, too). And, further, that animals (etc.) eat it is not particularly important to fruit as such, whose job is to nourish embryo future plants of the same sort (not all the fruits that animals don't eat). But this may be a different "fruit" than the one you are defining (or than 'kili' means, for that matter). So it would appear we need not a definition of each tp word, but several, even many. And all partial, probably matching different L1 words we use that tp word for. Of course, we could try for a single all-encompassing definition of each tp word, but thos would be very hard to do and would all start with something that says "having to do with ...."
All of the definitions you offer are subject to a mass of objections (too broad, too narrow, totally off base, etc.) but I don't see the point of going over them in detail since the whole project seems to me to be (in its present form, at least) not a reasonable task to pursue. Nor a particularly useful way to detect expert tpers.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:47 am

xy' can mean just about anything in a very broad area.
Correct: general + general = extra general.
'moku soweli' would be used for meat
meat -- "soweli moku" (a body for eating). "palisa soweli" -- bone.
I think that, if these definitions are to be useful at all, they need to be expository: 'soweli li moku e ona'
Good idea -- to explain tp-words by tp-words. tp-parents explain tp-words for their children. What does a "soweli"? "soweli li moku e kili e pan e kala e waso e kasi e pipi e... "soweli moli li moku e kin jan". This approach is good for kids.
Nor a particularly useful way to detect expert tpers.
Every language has experts. By default logic, tp also must have them. For me, at least, expert can explain any word of its area. This is basic indicator of a teacher (trainer). What is your definition of tpers? What he can do :?:

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janKipo » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:51 pm

I suppose you mean 'sijelo' rather than 'soweli'. 'soweli moku' using means an animal raised for food (or, of course, an animal who is eating, in a different context). Remember, modifier comes after head.

broad + broad tends to be equally broad but an intersection of sorts of the two broads.

Dead critters don't eat people, people eat them (or they are food for people, 'moku tawa jan'). 'kin' goes after the word stressed.

Having an approach good for kids is good also for newbies. Except, of course, that newbies have textbooks in English (or any of several other languages) that tell them pretty well (up to a point, which will move as they use the language) what the words mean. So, even the explanations for kids, who don't have another language to refer to, are inappropriate for tpers. And, of course, the usual purpose of one-language dictionaries to is pointless for tp, since there are not new, unfamiliar, words to explain: you already know all the words there are.

It is not clear that every language has experts in the sense you seem to have in mind. To be sure, every speaker of the language can do a pretty good job of creating new sentences for new situations and figuring out what new sentences he hears mean and that is a very practical kind of expertise. But only a few people in any language (and none in most) can tell how the language works at all accurately. To be sure, many in most languages can paraphrase in the way you seem to want, but that is not a special expertise generally.

I hope working on this project will improve your control of tp, but I don't see it as helping anyone else. And I certainly don't see skill in doing it as anything special. Well, actually, I suppose that at least some people who can give really good paraphrases demonstrate that they have delved into the language very deeply. But I suspect that there are others who are equally involved but just bad a making up example.


Return to “ijo ante | miscellaneous | diversaj”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron