Who of us is really a toki pona master?

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loteni
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby loteni » Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:33 pm

Reply to janpona120

point 1: semantic blob, is a term i made up meaning to consider all the words in a words definition as descriptive of a singular concept. This is wrong, in TP word definitions are pointing to many distinct concepts, which the word can mean distinctly.
For instance: suno: sun; light, brightness, glow, radiance.... etc... We shouldn't think suno is just a word that is a singular concept, but it distinctly means "sun" and also light...etc... not everything that is "light" is the "sun" or even related to it..etc....

point 2: Here I am referring to the different TP dialects. It is not correct to say someone is objectively wrong, unless they are wrong with respect to the dialect they are using. It is as silly as a scottish person correcting a londoner. Now on the other hand they could each make the claim of objective right/wrongness, with respect to the "queens english" - ie the official type of way of speaking that news reporters use. We have that in TP, its the official dialect from teh official book, so only they can really make such statements, and even so it would still be a pedantic, since the other dialects are accepted in their own domains anyway.

point 3: yes, it is a worthwhile endeavour. However I am pretty new to the language, it takes quite a while to learn. I would prefer to learn to the language before undertaking such a task.
Follower of the official dialect of toki pona as presented in the official book; Toki Pona, The Language of Good by Sonja Lang.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:38 pm

Well. Possibly, testing of tp mastery by the auto (pure, explanatory) dictionary is a question for a future. Ok. But, what can we do now? Any practice to be successful needs the upper point. It helps to go to the goal by more fast and strong steps. So, I am sure that tp should have own mountains (tests). Each of tp-speaker will have a set of check-points -- standardized tests. And every time, an intermediate finish will inspire him to new peaks in learning (studying) tp. Each of you may present own set of tests for tp-development. My proposition is a next:
tp-master can distribute tp-words in groups
Every word may be in several groups for different reasons. For example:
  • lili-suli
  • suno-mun
  • meli-mije
  • ...
  • ma-tomo-poki
  • waso-soweli-kala
  • ...
  • seli-kiwen-telo-kon
  • ...
  • jan-soweli-akesi-pipi-kasi-kili-pan
If tp-speaker can write all of these groups, he is tp-master level 1. Suppose, tp-level 0: is capability to write the classic tp-word list. Maybe, level 2: is capability to write grammatical constructions:
  • en li
  • la-li-e
  • li-kama
Tp-examination may be distributed on a lot of tests. And each of such a test will: as check (show a real level of mastery) as train to reach the wanted level. Discuss these tests and propose own ones.
pu li pan. mi nasin e tan.

janKipo
Posts: 2825
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:16 pm

Most words fall into several groups, stressing different factors. Which ones count? How much?
Being able to write the word list from memory is a Memrise trick, and relatively unimportant if you can remember the word when you need it.
No one should advance beyond ground zero, whatever that is, if they cannot regularly construct sentences with 'li' and 'e' (the first couple of lessons in the book, after all).
Not sure what construction you have in mind with 'en' 'li'. That is probably a bit later on, after you have the hang of the basics)
Why single out 'kama', which behaves like a bunch of other words that are more common ('wile' , say, and 'ken')?

Who will judge whether a person passes each step?

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:47 pm

Most words fall into several groups, stressing different factors. Which ones count? How much?
Yes, some words will be distributed in several groups by different basis:
  • antonyms (lili-suli)
  • an order or a stage of evolution (pan-kili-kasi)
  • density (seli-kon-telo-kiwen)
  • sectors (waso, soweli, kala)
  • ... and any other ground your mind of the well skilled tp-speaker is able to discover
Not sure what construction you have in mind with 'en' 'li'
"en" is related to subjects, no objects. Therefore, "en" goes before "li".
Why single out 'kama', which behaves like a bunch of other words that are more common ('wile' , say, and 'ken')?
Of course, these words also should be included in the final test list. Personally you may propose a full list for this type of combinations. This job is important for beginners, because they will be able to see the whole picture.
Who will judge whether a person passes each step?
The simplest way is Memrise, you know. Also, may be created spesial web-pages like IQ-test on: http://kisa.ca site. But before we should make these lists. I am sure, "The Road of Mastery" increases tp-community from a few hundred people to a lot of thousands with a global system of automatic registration, examination and confirmation of mastery.

loteni
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby loteni » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:54 pm

Just finding two people with mastery of the official dialect of TP, will be the first major hurdle. Of course if you are testing for different dialects you should make that clear.

Someone that has mastery of the most in use dialect, is barely at beginner level in the official dialect.
Follower of the official dialect of toki pona as presented in the official book; Toki Pona, The Language of Good by Sonja Lang.

janKipo
Posts: 2825
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janKipo » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:41 pm

Still don't know what groupings count

'en' also goes with prepositional phrases, so comes after 'li'.

Beginner don't see whole pictures because they don't have enough experience. We can show them major types and have them look for things that go into them, which is what textbooks mainly do. But what all goes into a frame will take some time to get in hand.

Memrise seems only to test for vocabulary, which is the least of knowing tp (though a necessary part).
Is kisa.ca still running? [added. I see that it is, but has nothing to do with tp, alas.]

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:27 am

Just finding two people with mastery of the official dialect of TP, will be the first major hurdle.
Wow! I was sure that "jan pu en jan pu li pona" (kulupu pi jan pu li pona) kulupu pu li pona... :shock: :D

I think, tp and a rat race are different things. In my understanding, each of "jan pu" is a beacon showing the way in the stormy sea of dialects. And it will be good, if their qualification will be confirmed by standard tests. For a while, we have no one name of "jan pu". Why no one can say: I am a tp-master and ready to take a hurdle? What is a reason for that:
  • pilin ike, pilin pini
  • sona anpa, sona lili
  • pali mute, tenpo ala
  • tan ni seme? wawa ala!
I had heard that tp can be studied during one month. It means that for a few years we have (must have) a solid group of tp-masters. Do we have?

loteni
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby loteni » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:11 am

janpona120 wrote:
Just finding two people with mastery of the official dialect of TP, will be the first major hurdle.
Wow! I was sure that "jan pu en jan pu li pona" (kulupu pi jan pu li pona) kulupu pu li pona... :shock: :D

I think, tp and a rat race are different things. In my understanding, each of "jan pu" is a beacon showing the way in the stormy sea of dialects. And it will be good, if their qualification will be confirmed by standard tests. For a while, we have no one name of "jan pu". Why no one can say: I am a tp-master and ready to take a hurdle? What is a reason for that:
  • pilin ike, pilin pini
  • sona anpa, sona lili
  • pali mute, tenpo ala
  • tan ni seme? wawa ala!
I had heard that tp can be studied during one month. It means that for a few years we have (must have) a solid group of tp-masters. Do we have?



Hmm ? you say "X pu" a lot there, but im not sure if what you intend to say, is what you are actually saying. Do you have the book? It seems you do not, from your posts? A lot of people do not have the book, and a lot of people in the toki pona community do not respect it. Fewer still know how to use the book. Even worse, some think it has little content, or even "wrong"...

Look at the word "pu" itself, it is a marvellous word that really requires a lot of deep thought to begin to understand. Toki pona in general is like that, it is a thoughtful and friendly language, and it's small but very deep and profound.

"pu" -- ADJECTIVE: Interacting with the official Toki Pona book.

You might, if thoughtless, think that if "pu" is going to be used to refer to "the toki pona book", then it it would be best just defining it is a NOUN; Toki Pona learning material -- something like that... But it is actually a statement that that singular book is "The Official Toki Pona book". So why not a NOUN: The Official Toki Pona book ? We can can already say that we can, use, know, read, etc... it... The definition you might think is "silly". But know it is telling you what the book is like, and how you should approach it. Of course there are still seemingly clearer ways to define "pu", if you are not mindful enough, but it is exactly an ADJECTIVE.
Of course it is possible to write pages about the word "pu", as you can with all other toki pona words. This is having the property of "pu". Instead of not and just ignoring what pu wants to kindly tell you, merely ignoring the wisdom of pu, and redefining things to fit your own limited imagination.
Follower of the official dialect of toki pona as presented in the official book; Toki Pona, The Language of Good by Sonja Lang.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby janpona120 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:30 am

"pu" -- ADJECTIVE: Interacting with the official Toki Pona book.
You are absolutely right. "pu" is adjective in a classic version of tp. And you also are right about me. I really am trying to do a modification of tp. It is true. And you have a right to express emotions, because your current situation with tp is comfortable. Also, I know that some people use a tree ("kasi") to make a fire ("seli") for a picnic ("musi moku"). There are another ones: who uses a tree to make a violin ("ilo kalama linja"). Your way is right. From some point of view, an alternative way is right,too. And possibly, such an innovative people shouldn't use the name -- tp.
ignoring the wisdom of pu, and redefining things to fit your own limited imagination.
So nice :D I like an English expression "pregnant imagination". It sounds so cool for slavic natives. And now let me propose to return the talk back to the mainstream of the discussion:
  • Who of us is a real toki pona master?... and
  • How to test the mastery?
Still we observe the long-long silence on the forum. Why no one of the world can give replies on these two simple questions? It tells us about a real situation. The tp-commuity is not charged enought. A slowly smoldering fire.

loteni
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Who of us is really a toki pona master?

Postby loteni » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:24 am

hmm, "classic version of tp", that implies we have moved on from that. That is not true, the classic version is more equatable to the common dialect. However since it is common usage still, "classic" isn't really the right word.

Pu is the actual TP, Sonja who published TP first in 2001, which caught on pretty well, and then in 2014 finally released the information clarifying the actual way of TP.

Ofcourse by 2014 people already had mastery of their own ways using TP already, and there are already online resources for learning TP in different ways and different dialects, and they tend to have with them sets of tests that test your mastery with respect to that information.

So your question probably seems strange, since this is already built into the learning resources online already.

Also you could make your own new language based on what you have so far understood about TP, if you want. However wanting to modify TP really is crazy. People who want to change TP, fall into two main camps;

1. They want to add robot arms to a tree, so it makes cups of tea. OR
2. They want to sew the leaves of a tree together, so it functions better as a umbrella.

For 1; a tree is not supposed to make cups of tea, you want to make completely separate machine that does that.
For 2; a tree already functions well as a umbrella, just let it grow, sewing the leaves together will just destroy it.

Trying to modify something you have not fully grasped is a fools errand, for all you know it does do already and very well, that which you wished it would do, you just have not learnt the nature of the thing yet.
Follower of the official dialect of toki pona as presented in the official book; Toki Pona, The Language of Good by Sonja Lang.


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