Who of us is really a toki pona master?

[janpona120]

and they tend to have with them sets of tests that test your mastery

It is great. You have an information which is the best result for this discussion:

• May I ask you to publish a set of links to see these tests?

I think, a lot of newbies, including me, will be very glad to get this important information. Thanks for your help.

[janKipo]

Unfortunately, there are no such tests in any organized sense. At best, you get people who comment on other people and either praise or criticize them and people who others look to for advice. This may be as much a matter of personality as of expertise (cf. politics) and so not a good guide for what you want. It is, however, pretty much how languages work, aside from autocratic systems like "the creator's word is final" or the Academy (neither of which actually work all that well).

[janpona120]

Unfortunately, there are no such tests in any organized sense.

This forum may create tests, including tests in a format of real battle. For example, your phrase is good enought to serve as a question to test a skillfulness of tp-community. I suppose, the real tp-master will be able to translate this phrase as well as it is prescribed by "pu". I am a beginner. Therefore, my variant possibly will be weak in comparison with variants of tp-"bisons". In my opinion:

• Unfortunately -- ike
• there are -- lon li
• there are no -- lon ala li
• such -- sama ni
• test -- utala sona (or "utala sijelo" in a sense of contest of bodies)
• in any -- insa ali
• organized -- kulupu
• sense -- sona

Whole phrase:
ike la sama ni pi utala sona li lon ala insa ali pi sona kulupu
This translation contains 15 words and 6 groups. And a level of mastery may be calculated in %. For example, 10 words are correct (67%) and 3 groups are correct (50%). What do you think about such a kind of evaluation? "jan utala li jo e sona kepeken pona pini pi utala mute"
____________________________________________________________________
* I have still two variants to translate a word "test": "utala lawa" and "utala open"

[janKipo]

Well, I don't much like your translation, but that is largely personal style and viewpoint (which will always be a problem with standardized tests).
'ike la' "unfortunately" is standard.
'sama ni' "this identity, this similarity" is possible for "this sort" but both 'nasin ni' and 'kulupu ni' seem closer to the point (you may disagree).
'utala sona' "knowledge battle" is nice for a showdown contest, but misses the point of a standardized test against an impartial form. I don't have a suggestion for a good expression for that, though an old list offers 'lukin sona', based on 'lukin (wawa)' for "examine".
'lon ala insa ali' means "are not among everything" which seems to mean just "don't exist". (Note that his can't be analyzed another way -- as your notes suggest -- because 'insa' is a noun and so does not attach to 'lon ala' other than as a prepositional object. Were it not for the 'pi' following, it could be an adverb, giving "is not totally internally'at", butthat seems even further from the point.)
At this point, I suspect the English is getting in the way of the sense, in that "in any organized sense" probably actually modifies the subject, not the predicate. But, in any case, "in any organized sense" is more clearly 'kepeken sona nasin" or something along that line.
So, 'ike la nasin ni pi lukin sona, pi kepeken sona nasin li lon ala.'
Yours is (for a totally failing grade for me) "Unfortunately, this identity of wise battles is not completely in the middle of group knowledge."

"A warrior gets knowledge by the achievements of many battles." Nice.

'utala lawa' looks like either legal fights or a battle involving heads. 'utala open' is either an initial fight or an open (to all?) battle. As informal first guesses.

[janpona120]

'utala sona' "knowledge battle" is nice for a showdown contest,
but misses the point of a standardized test against an impartial form.

A chess tournament is also an intellectual and public battle. A battle of minds, a battle of knowledge.

I don't have a suggestion for a good expression for that,
though an old list offers 'lukin sona', based on 'lukin (wawa)' for "examine".

I think, a key question: how to say "to evaluate" in tp? Can you?

(Note that his can't be analyzed another way -- as your notes suggest --
because 'insa' is a noun and so does not attach to 'lon ala' other than as a prepositional object.

There is a standard construction "li lon insa". Therefore, it may be "legally" to use a construction "li lon ala insa".

But, in any case, "in any organized sense" is more clearly 'kepeken sona nasin"

And again, it is a question: how to translate a word "organism" in tp? In my opinion, the word "organism" is near to a word "kulupu", because any group is an organized system. Any group is an organism. And now, about your variant -- "sona nasin" (as an organized sense). Look: http://www.suburbandestiny.com/?cat=20&paged=4 :... sona nasin– philosophy, religion. I think, the word "nasin" has a dynamic meanings: ritual, protocol, procedure, scenario...
So, "kulupu" is a static portrait of objects, "nasin" is a dynamic portrait of objects. Also, "sona" is a static portrait of information, "toki" is a dynamic portrait of information.

So, 'ike la nasin ni pi lukin sona, pi kepeken sona nasin li lon ala.'

It is interesting to see comments on your translation "Unfortunately, there are no such tests in any organized sense."

[janKipo]

Chess is still about winners and losers, not about competence and incompetence directly.
Sonja says 'pona e' for "evalutate", but that seems to raise a bunch of issues. Beyond that, I have no suggestions,
'lon ala insa' still ends in a noun, so what follows it has to be a modifier of that noun, not a new noun phrase (unless a 'pi' intervenes).
I'm not sure what organism have to do directly with "organized", but I have no idea how to translate "organism", the issue simply has not come up. But neither has "organized". How an organism is near to a group is not clear to me either, nor how a group is near to "organized", since groups can be totally disorganized. Mato's guess about 'sona nasin' is not bad, though 'nasin sona' has also been used. oth words get used for "theory" and "organized study" and the like. But the static-dynamic contrast is interesting.
I do wish someone else looked at the Forums from time to time, but it rarely happens. Maybe loteni will turn up. Or Lope.

[janpona120]

Chess is still about winners and losers, not about competence and incompetence directly

I think, the world is designed as a total fractal. A chess grandmaster (winner) vs. a newbie (loser). Always.

Sonja says 'pona e' for "evalutate", but that seems to raise a bunch of issues.

A proto-semantic of the term "evaluate" is composed of: number (digit, range) + health (norm, standard). So, my version:

• to evaluate -- li pana e nanpa pona -- to calculate a level of health (normality)

How an organism is near to a group is not clear to me either, nor how a group is near to "organized",
since groups can be totally disorganized.

Any part of group has correlation with the same part of body (organism). A group leader (formal or informal) -- "lawa", a head of organism (or at least, a top) -- "lawa". And so on. The disorganized group and a weak organism has similar anatomy, and behaviour.

Mato's guess about 'sona nasin' is not bad, though 'nasin sona' has also been used.

An inversion changes a sense.

• "ilo moku" -- tool for food. "moku ilo" -- food for tool: electricity, gas, oil...
• "tomo moku" -- house for food. "moku tomo" -- food for house: electricity, heat, water...
• "kasi moku" -- edible food. "moku kasi" -- food for plant: fertilizers.

But the static-dynamic contrast is interesting.

Yeah! tp has a marvelous (linguistic) beauty, like "Miss Congeniality", like a diamond. And a stratification can show that very well.

[janKipo]

I don't see what fractals have to d with it, except, I suppose, it is the same all the way up and all the way down. But the point about evaluations is just that they are not winners and losers; everybody might get an A (or an F). So what you say about "evaluate" -- aside from the stuff about proto-semantics (whatever that is) has some point: it is about scoring against a standard. "Standard" is very likely 'nasin' and scores tend to become nanpa eventually, so 'nanpa nasin', "number according to a standard" seems in the right area, at least. And, of course, we need what the standard is for, "quality" , 'pona', so 'nanpa pi nasin pona;.
But groups don't have to have leaders or heads or tails or even definite parts; they're just things somehow set off from ohers. To be sure, most of the important ones do have some or all these added details, but that makes them more than groups.
Inversion changes sense clearly with directional concepts, like 'ilo', but less obviously for other cases. 'soweli moku' can be the same as 'moku soweli' (though also very different, of course) and I expect the same applies to 'kasi' (more so, since we don't talk as much about food for plants). The fact is that modification is so vague that almost anything is possible. 'moku tomo' is usually home made food or house specialties, for example (never fuel or electricity, though I can see why it might be).
I don't get the last bit, but it looks nice.

[janpona120]

I don't see what fractals have to d with it, except, I suppose, it is the same all the way up and all the way down

A world of chess is a fractal for a lot of things as emotional (win-lose) as formal (on-off) tests.

... groups don't have to have leaders or heads or tails or even definite parts;

Fractals are around: group = organism = factory = building, and even an usual article has a head, a tail, limbs (links).

... but that makes them more than groups.

a pile (crowd) = disorganized group, an organism = organized group... the group becomes an alive (dynamic) organism

'soweli moku' can be the same as 'moku soweli' (though also very different, of course) and I expect the same applies to 'kasi'

All rotations have equal structure and behaviour. So, "soweli moku" is an animal for food. You know, some religions forbid the use of dirty animals for food, while others are allowed to. "moku soweli" is clearly -- food for animals: fourage, meal... Such a story with "kasi moku". You also know, some plants are poisonous. You do not have to eat them. Therefore, when your "jan pona li toki e ni tawa sina: ona li lon e kasi moku", you may be sure the plant is good. You will have a good "tenpo moku" (a time for food).

I don't get the last bit, but it looks nice.

I say about an internal structure of tp. I had discovered a "linguistic" crystal of tp-vocab. All tp-120 are distributed on 8 identical templets. tp has own internal fractal structure. See one of them below. It really has a brilliant design:

tp: a tree of life

[janpona120]

tp is for fun. But, why tp has so little number of fun events?

from: www.dreamstime.com

Today, I propose for the strongest tp-masters to test themselves in a really difficult puzzle.
Its name is "pixie" (from, misterious pX-notation). The conditions of the game are very simple:
it is needed to swap all translations of tp-words on new words, beginning with a letter "p":

• jan -- person
• wawa -- power
• ma -- place
• pali -- practice, process
• sike -- perimeter, periphery
• palisa -- palm
• sitelen -- picture... and so on

Are there something insuperable for you?