nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

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janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janpona120 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:09 am

basic pu-words: ala, wan, tu, luka

__________________ nanpa ala_ -- it is "0"
__________________ nanpa wan -- it is "1"
__________________ nanpa tu__ -- it is "2"
__________________ nanpa luka -- it is "5"

two digits-numbers demand word "nanpa" before every digital word of tp:
__________________ nanpa wan nanpa tu -- it is "12"
__________________ nanpa luka nanpa ala -- it is "50"

any length-numbers:
nanpa luka nanpa ala nanpa wan nanpa tu -- "5012"
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also we need others digits and tp can do it. To make "3" we should put "2" left from "5" as in "roman digit style"... "3" is "tu luka". The same way we make:

"4" -- "wan luka"... (it means that from "5" minus "1")
"6" -- "luka wan"... (it means that to "5" add "1")
"7" -- "luka tu"..... (it means that to "5" add "2)
______________________________________________________________________________________

digits "8" and "9" can be done in "roman style" too:

"8" -- "luka tu luka"... (it means 5+3 or more justly 5+ ((-2) + 5))
"9" -- "luka tu luka"... (it means 5+4 or more justly 5+ ((-1) + 5))
_______________________________________________________________________________________

So, from now tp-community may use tp in real mathematics: phone numbers, time & date, prices...
_______________________________________________________________________________________

For example:
__________________nanpa wan nanpa luka wan luka -- "19"

__________________nanpa luka wan luka nanpa luka tu luka nanpa luka tu -- "987"
pu li pan. mi nasin e tan.

janKipo
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janKipo » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:48 am

Well, for starters, 'nanpa n' is an ordinal, "nth" for every number expression. The subtraction from the left, add from the right approach is ingenious and, because it has only limited use, much better than the usual multiply from the left idea. There remain the problems that his gets very long and repetitive and that every large number system ever proposed has been rejected -- after a lot more criticism.
Thanks for joining this decade and more discussion.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janpona120 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:36 am

There remain the problems that his gets very long and repetitive and that every large number system ever proposed has been rejected -- after a lot more criticism

compare:
1. http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona ... index.html :
___ three words: ______________________ luka tu tu 5 + 2 + 2 = 9
___ four words: _______________________ luka luka tu tu 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 = 14

2. nd-notation:
___ four words: ______________________ nanpa luka wan luka (5+(-1+5) = 9)
___ five words: _______________________ nanpa wan nanpa wan luka (1..., -1+5 = 14)

examples from rowa.giso.de are repetitive (luka luka... & tu tu...)
examples from nd-notation repeat the word "nanpa". This type of repetition helps to understand speed talk by accent on word "nanpa". Make pauses and change an intonation on the "nanpa" and you will have "pona" for your "kute". Try:

nanpa wan (make a pause and change the intonation) nanpa wan luka. It sounds good.

Next position is about digital-combinations "wan tu" and "tu wan". It is not three any way. Really it means:

"wan" for "tu" -- half (a part of a couple)
"tu" for "wan" -- couple (two things for one union)

So, "jan wan tu" -- is a member of a couple as a variant. And "jan tu wan" -- possibly is a couple.
let me know: how does tp express: half and couple?

janKipo
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janKipo » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:52 am

Poorly, if at all. These various issues have not been explored in any detail, if at all.
Your proposals all have to be viewed against the background of the existing system, clunky as it may be. So any change must be clearly different in an obvious way. As noted, 'nanpa' with numbers already has a use different from this one and strings of digits already have a use. The only variation that may work here is changing the order of digits, putting a smaller one before a larger. You use this for subtraction in fixed patterns to get the ten decimal digits, not, apparently for general mathematics yet. This might work (it seems sounder that using the shift for multiplication generally, which gets into grouping problem early on). Using it only with 'luka' as the second element opens the pattern up for further developments, including in the way you suggest, although going beyond 1/2 doesn't seem easy in a general way. But the use of 'nanpa' to separate decimal places creates an unacceptable (even more than tampering with the current number system) change. Some other word might work, however. As I said, this discussion is almost as old as tp and has been through countless variations, all of them failing to catch hold. Thank you for this, which is a step forward.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janpona120 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:05 am

Today I propose to evaluate a way to express such a mathematical concept as a fraction. To do this we should use a templet "nanpa X" and an analogy with a pregnancy. First month of pregnancy is 1/9, 2d -- 2/9... to 9/9. So:
  • nanpa mije -- numerator
  • nanpa meli -- denominator
When the numerator becomes more than the denominator (10/9), we receive a whole number (like a new baby).

janKipo
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janKipo » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:25 pm

So 'nanpa mije wan nanpa meli luka wan luka' = 1/9? It is terribly long-winded, but any solution within existing tp is bound to be.
still, this is the most I have seen done with fractions in a while, so thanks for the additions. Don't get you hopes up for any changes, however; it's been fifteen years with no progress (indeed a regress, since we lost 'tuli' and 'po').

Baerdric
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:24 pm

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby Baerdric » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:59 am

I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but why don't we use positional notation? We have 3 digits, that's better than binary. Won ala ala ala is 27.

I would prefer 5 digits so I can count on my fingers in one hand. In base 5, wan ala ala is 25. We just need words for three and four.
I answer to jan Linja Sinpin Loje but you can call me jan Loje

janKipo
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janKipo » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:41 pm

This has been chewed over for ten years I've been here and was old when I arrived, so tresimal systems have been worked out (and roundly hated, for obvious reasons) and 4, 5, and 7, 8, and, of course 10 (and 12 and 16 and 20 and 60) have been discussed, with no visible change whatsoever. And all the various other ways of combining numbers other than adding them. And a dozen (underestimate) ways of naming the numbers above two.
The separate,but obviously related, problem of reading strings of decimal digit (telephone numbers, credit card numbers, PINs, SSNs and so on throughout the bureaucracy) has also been debated and and left in the dirt many times -- and it doesn't even count as part of tp, being about unofficial words. Big numbers are the area of the most noise for the longest time with the least accomplished (Sonja added 'mute' = 20 and 'ale' = 100, which actually made matters worse) in all of tp. You can read the records in the forum (mainly jan nasa, but most other groups at some time or other) and on the old list and facebook, reddit and g+. No surprises and no results.
By the way, we threw away words (not very good ones, to be sure), for 3 and 4 ('tuli' and 'po') fairly early on (before my time, anyhow).

Baerdric
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:24 pm

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby Baerdric » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:16 pm

Thanks janKipo. In that case I won't pursue the issue at this point, beyond saying that I can see the philosophical desire to keep numbers difficult to discuss - except when it interferes with helping other people. If someone needs 25 cans of soup, they should be able to ask for them.

Of course, international decimal digits can be quoted in any language.
I answer to jan Linja Sinpin Loje but you can call me jan Loje

janKipo
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nd-notation. How to count anything in tp?

Postby janKipo » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:27 pm

In writing, of course, but not in speech, and language is primarily speech, even when it is most commonly written.
25 is not much of a problem in tp; a thousand certainly is. Of course, the idea was that the community of speakers would live such simple lives that things in that quantity would not be needed. But reality has intervened to some extent. We can manage quite a bit without numbers at all and some more with just a few rather complicated ones, but we reach our limits rather quickly in dealing with the real world: putting $17.93 on credit card 1234 5678 9009 8765 (security 432, expiration 10/20) while calling 1-123-456-7890 to tell the boss we have closed on 0978-65432-1 at the agreed price of $164,948.78 to be filled by 10-9-15. Part of this is just vocabulary of course, assigning words from the existing stock to mean dollars and cents and various pieces of number strings. But all that is inherently flawed from a contemporary perspective.


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