как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

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jan Alanto
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby jan Alanto » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:01 pm

I only see "sewi li tan e jan." meaning "God originated man." or "gives/is the reason to men (li pana e tan tawa jan/li tan tawa jan)". I would think of an expulsion with "li tawa e jan tan" (moved from), "li weka e jan" (make absent), "li tawa weka e jan" (moved "away").

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:14 pm

'tan' means "from" as a preposition, so "source, origin" as a noun (the core of the things which are objects of that preposition). In the verb position, then, it means "to be from". But, when converted to a transitive form (taking an 'e' object) it is causative: "causes the Direct Object to be from" "removed the direct object". This leaves the "from where?" up in the air, presumably supplied by context. In the case of Adam, we know from the story that it is Eden. It should be noted that 'lon e' is not the common expression for removing something, that is 'weka' (also a causative derivative). So, 'sewi li tan e jan Atan' is corect, just unusual.
'tan' has nothing (obvious) to do with creation or, in this configuration, reasons or causes. Creation belongs to 'lon' and 'pali', reasons and causes tend to be in other configurations 'tan' as a noun or preposition, not a verb.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:22 pm

janpona120 wrote:Here, we have a templet "X lon Y". Now we may insert different words instead X, Y, and to compare them:
  • "jan lon telo" (man at-in water) -- I imagine a situation where someone is jumping into water
  • "ma Atalantis lon telo" (Atlantis at-in water) -- I see how the Atlantis goes under water
  • "kasi lon ma" (a plant at-in soil) -- I have planted a flower (I have a planted flower)
And, the most significant example, for me, is "jan lon len" (a man located at-in-inside the clothes). I see in the "lon" only the substantivated (verb-adjective) name. Of course, we should analyze this templet more deep. A perfect solution I see in that: to find out key words for all "mediators": la, lon, pi, tan. If you have some ideas about keys for these words, guess, it willl be very interesting for all to know them.


I'm trying to follow, but you're translating "lon" as a motionless "in/at" (not *"into/to", which would be "tawa insa"/"tawa"), whereas your association implies movement in all three cases.
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:14 am

'li pi' is automatically ungrammatical because 'pi' has to come between content words
In a common case it is an ellipsis (a contextual speech form, that is a collapsed part of a sentence). We know, that tp is a contextual language, so we may have some invisible part of sentence ('li... pi") in a verb slot. For example: "tomo li pi mi" --> "tomo li jo pi mi" (the house is mine).
  • 1: 'lon; and 'tan' are prepositions basically, not verbs at all (they take objects without 'e')
  • 2: 'sewi li tan e jan Atan' is corect, just unusual
There is an opinion that any noun in a verb slot becomes a verb. I agree with this, and, guess, it is a smart solution for "li lon e", "li tan e". tp is a language of conventional idioms. So, we may add still a couple. A next example shows how it beautifully works:
I only see "sewi li tan e jan." meaning "God originated man."
I see here two usages of "tan". First, as a noun. "sewi li tan" (the Heaven = the Origin, that is a nomination). Second, as a verb. "sewi li tan e jan" (the Heaven throw a human out, like a woman gives birth to a child, or like a mouth thow words out, or like a brain throw ideas out).
I'm trying to follow, but you're translating "lon" as a motionless "in/at" (not *"into/to", which would be "tawa insa"/"tawa"),
whereas your association implies movement in all three cases.
It is still one example of ellipsis. Some part of my mental work was collapsed. Full variant is: "ona li utala e jan tawa telo" (someone pushes another person towards water). It is a dynamic part of event. As a result, the person is located in water -- "jan lon telo". It is a finish of the event. The static part. Also, next two examples have a pre-history (dynamic part of event), and a final static situation: "Atlantis is located in water". Its previous dynamic history is finished. And "kasi lon ma" is a finish of previous stage... when someone was planting a seed in a soil ("ona li lon e pan insa ma"). The seed begin to grow. And as a result -- the plant is located in soil ("kasi lon ma").

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:51 pm

Not only is "ni li pi mi" ungrammatical because "pi" has to stand between two noun phrases, the second noun phrase has to consist of more than one word, so a single "mi" is not enough in order to justify the use of "pi".

I've got the feeling that you are relying to much on ellipses.

mi tawa
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:58 pm

It is hard to write technically ungrammatical tp, since, with a few obvious exceptions, any string of tp words has a grammar and, indeed, often several. In particular, almost any two word string has several grammatical analyses: noun noun, noun adj, adj adverb, verb adverb,, and verb noun (the last is often a genuine case of ellipsis, as I think you are using it). And most of these structures with most words have a number of possible readings. In most cases, however, most grammatical structures and most readings a given structure are relatively implausible, and much more so when compared with possible common errors. So, while 'lili waso' can mean "avian small thing" (egg, nest, nestling, feather, etc.), it is much more unlikely to do so than to be a mistake for 'waso lili', a standard form for chick/ nestling. And the same can be said for the meaning "paucity of birds" or even "smallness of birds", certainly in a contextless discussion.
I don't know where you get your ideas about 'tan', but they are remote from tp. 'tan' is a preposition, "from, because" As a result it is derivatively a noun meaning "origin cause" and, though rarely used, a transitive verb meaning "expel", say. The idea that God created man as expressed by 'sewi li tan e jan' conflates these two notions somehow. The situation is not helped by the fact that the straightforward expression of "Go is the cause/origin of man" is 'sewi li tan jan', which also means"God is from man". The expulsion notion, God birthed man in some sorta physical sense, requires a prepositions object, say 'insa': 'sewi li tan insa e jan'. To be sure, objects get dropped ( understood), but doing so in this case is guaranteed to make the whole incomprehensible.
Even in the old days of 'ni li pi mi', 'ni li jo pi mi' would have been very weird, since it is hard ( though legal) to read 'jo' as a noun after 'li'.

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:20 am

I've got the feeling that you are relying to much on ellipses
A poetry makes a language more attractive. But, it depends on ellipses. People like my verses, because I embed ellipses into each of them. I collapse an information into one word, and the text becomes smart, delitious. Let me demonstrate ellipses in a short verse:

four wheels
one passager beside
parfume
your timid sight

Here is an extra concentrated (collapsed) information. And just ellipses make these text more attractive, than a detailed description with a lot of words. For example, an ellipsis "parfume" is a little part of whole paragraph, describing some attractive woman. I would like to write verses in tp, but I need ellipses like this:

ken la li olin
ken la li ala
o wile e anu
o pilin e tan a

it is permitted to love
it is permitted do not
wish to do a choice
feel a reason, oh, gosh

I do not understand why you are against ellipses? A language without poetry is not simply onefold..., it is a pauper one

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:14 pm

In these discussions,, a term like "ellipsis" is likely to be read as a term of grammar. So, much of what you said was unclear because there did not appear to be any cases of rule governed omission of sentential components. But it turns out apparently that you are talking about selection and focus and such like factors of composition that occur before sentences are (finally) formed. And yes successful poetry ( and prose, for that matter) does depend on these. And yes there may be a linguistic-- though not usually a grammatical -- intermediary, since most good writing is largely editing. Going from a paragraph to single word is extreme but possible, particularly in reframing prose to poetry. But, in the end, what emerges in language has to be grammatical or it is not language, just words. And then deletion transformations may play a role, as well as other sorts of conventions. So you English example works -- given the information that it is a poem. The tp less so, in the absence of further conventions. So far, tp requires a subject if it has a marked predicate. So 'ken la li Olin" doesn't work, though 'ken la oli' and 'ken olin ' ( which is closer to the translation given) do. Similarly for the next line, though 'ken ala' is not so clear even in context. 'Anu' is generally excluded from the class of content words, though I think it's use to mean "choice, choose" has occurred. It would still be puzzling to most people, I think.
You really I should try your hand at tp haiku, which seem to be a very natural form.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:34 am

janpona120 wrote:I do not understand why you are against ellipses? A language without poetry is not simply onefold..., it is a pauper one


Sorry, I didn't mean to criticize your art. It just doesn't read like grammatical Toki Pona to me (which is done on purpose, as I realize only now).

mi tawa.
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby jan Pina » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:27 am

janpona120 wrote:обычно слово "кровь" на тп записывают как "красная жидкость".

А есть еще способ:

кровь -- жидкость для сердца
... telo suno (blood -- liquid for heart)

remark: suno = sun = (astrologically: sun, heart, glory, light...)


I like it but...
It is poetic and beautiful but very counter-intuitive. It sounds more like a "liquid gold" not a "blood"
So if we will go this way it could cause a big problem.
We wlii create a dictionary of counter-intuitive complex words.
Which in turn will kill the very idea of Toki Pona.
So let's keep it simple and clear.
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Это очень поэтично и красиво но по моему скромному мнению абсолютно противоречит идеологии TP.
Потому что первая ассоциация на "telo suno" у меня "жидкость цвета солнца" а именно "жидкое золото"
Для какой нибудь ацтекской поэзии о Цветочной войне оно конечно в самый раз.
Но для для повседневного применения явно никуда.
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