как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

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janpona120
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как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:08 pm

обычно слово "кровь" на тп записывают как "красная жидкость".

А есть еще способ:

кровь -- жидкость для сердца
... telo suno (blood -- liquid for heart)

remark: suno = sun = (astrologically: sun, heart, glory, light...)

аналогично:

слезы -- жидкость для глаз ... telo oko (liquid for eye)
слюна -- жидкость для рта ... telo uta (liquid for mouth

janKipo
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:13 pm

I hope your English is better than my Russian.
'telo oko' is an old idiom for tears
'telo uta' is a reasonable idiom for "spit, saliva"
'telo loje' is an old idiom for blood, but has problems. 'telo suno' makes a certain sense (as you show) but is not intuitive to some of us ("heart" is 'insa', for example). Still, I like it.

janpona120
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:05 pm

I follow Sonja's philosophy as I think. In my understanding, all world was distributed on 120-boxes. So box-"suno" has next things:

1. sun
2. light
3. .... (and others match things)

When we combine words, we receive one narrow sense. For example:

"ilo suno" -- has only narrow sense -- "tool for light"... (not "tool for sun").

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suppose, tp-author had made draft list of senses for each a tp-word. And next step is to make full set of senses for each of tp-word. I think, it gives us a real evolution of this language. When we will have only sense for every combination, we will have "simplicity" -- a key property of tp. For a while, we have vague, because "world distribution into 120-boxes" is not finished. So, "insa" for "heart" is not strong correlation, because there is assimetric translation:

"insa" --> "heart" ... and "heart" --> "insa"

It is obviously, if to test this translation by mathematics:

1 + 4 = 5... and 5 - 4 = 1

Here we have total (double-directed) simmetry. About tp we cannot say this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me show some examples:

mun:

1. moon
2. reflect
3. ...

So "ilo mun" -- mirror. I think, it sounds "like a love song". Here is total mutual harmony:

"jan suno" --> "popular person" (man of glory)
"jan mun" --> "empathic person" (fan)

The cross correlation is a genetic property of tp. And by this tp inspire me.

janKipo
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:36 pm

I like some of your examples very much. But I think you general point (as I understand it) is too narrow. It fails, in particular, to include the role of context. Thus, we often use the phrase 'jan pona' to mean "friend" ('jan li pona tawa mi') but 'jan pona' can also mean simple a good person in a variety of context -- morality, getting the job done, cannibalism, to name a few. It also does not include the cultural element, probably because tp has no culture now. Thus, 'mun' as "reflection" presupposes that we know that the moon's light is reflective and also ignores the fact that every light in the night sky is a mun in tp. Similarly, 'jan suno' supposes that the notion of a shining person is honored or glorified. None of these things can be assumed until we get some basis for metaphors working in tp. Once that is done, things will go pretty much as you suggest. But we aren't there yet.
Last edited by janKipo on Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

janpona120
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:36 am

But I think you general point (as I understand it) is too narrow


You are right. I am trying to extract narrow details of tp. In my opinion, by tp you can see the world as well in mode of telescope as well in mode of microscope. And it is magic. tp expresses it in a simple way.

the telescope mode of tp describes the world with "one-two words" combinations
the microscope mode uses more long combinations -- "three-four-five... words"

two words (wide sense):________ ilo kon -- tool for air

three words (narrow sense):_____ ilo kon telo -- tool for aeration for aquarium
_____________________________ ilo kon suwi -- tool for aromatization for sweet
_____________________________ ...
_____________________________ ilo kon lete -- cooler

the way is "pona" to express any microscopic sense if you need it. And I like tp for this, because it is real demonstration of simplicity effect. You also can do it, using a sintax templet: word-for-word (w4w, w4w4w...)

janKipo
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:10 pm

It is probably worth noting that thse details of how idioms (or even nonce forms) work is all after the fact. We cannot, generally, set out to produce useful expressions by generating lists of two-word or three-word or ... expressions with meanings assigned by some rules. Rather, we hit upon an expression and then figure out how it works -- if it is acceptable at all. So, none of your 'ilo kon' series looks like something I would end up using. But 'ilo lete' for a cooler -- probably an air-conditioner even -- seems a likely item of use. Partly, I suppose, because it is short, but also because it is to the point in a familiar way (although with 'ilo' the underlying sentences turn out to use 'kepeken')

janpona120
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:23 am

Rather, we hit upon an expression and then figure out how it works -- if it is acceptable at all.
Intuition is important. I like it and use it, even for cases like this: 2+2=... and then figure out how it works... Sometimes, it helps me to find out very interesting results. Almost each scientific breakthrough has the intuitive approach in its base. Though, we can receive the best, using both ways: logic and intuition. So, I propose do not oppose "mU-logic" and "pu-intuition". They can work together as well as anyone can figure out. In my opinion, "poly-semantics of pu" and "proto-semantics of mU" are the best friends.

'ilo lete' for a cooler -- probably an air-conditioner even -- seems a likely item of use.
Here are the keen differences between:

-- ilo lete -- to make a cool for something -- a refrigirator ("ilo lete mute" -- a freezer)
-- ilo kon lete -- to use an air to make a cool -- for the air-frozen food... (here, the Air is a main Agent)
-- ilo lete kon -- to use a cool to freeze an air -- just for air (no food, no house, no people) only for air

janKipo
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:55 pm

As an old-fashioned philosopher of science (e.g. one of Carnap's last students), I, of course, like the idea of discovery procedures. But as a realistic historian of science, I know that intuitions regularly come before procedures -- on the surface. But, behind the scenes, the intuitor has been through all the procedures and his intuition is often an unconscious integration of that background which, after the flash, becomes overt in the working out. My objection to mU is simply that it is not tp and that its methods or background for creating things does not yield tp, but another language with a distressingly similar looking vocabulary but a different grammar and semantics (so, a different language).

ilo lete = cold tool (been out all night), tool for cold (thermal gloves, maybe) tool to make cold (where we in fact arrive) and probably several other possibilities, each of which might come into play in some context and one of which is probably actually in use.
tp notes:
freezer (in this chain) is probably 'ilo pi lete mute'
ilo kon lete is an air tool which is cold; I'm not sure what that might be 'ilo pi kon lete' is probably an air conditioner, a tool for cold air; but 'ilo lete kon', a cold machine for air, might work as well, though I suppose there are a number of other possibilities. 'ilo pi lete kon' doesn't suggest anything now, but might in the right circumstances (whatever those might be). The mechanical procedures do give raher definite answers, it appears, but not plausible one from the point of either tp grammar or tp semantics.

janpona120
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:16 pm

ilo lete = cold tool (been out all night), tool for cold (thermal gloves, maybe) tool to make cold
the thermal gloves -- "len" in any case. Here we have two variants: "len" for cold, "len" against cold. Can you express these both variants, using tp? "for vs. against": what is what? A basic formulation is "len lete". How to distinguish: "a tool for a cold" and "a tool against a cold"? How to distinguish: "len" for a cold and "len" against a cold?
freezer (in this chain) is probably 'ilo pi lete mute'
A templet "X pi Y" includes such variants as "portion of stuff" (for example? a drop of water) or "a child of parents". So, "ilo pi lete mute" may mean: "freezer, which made of ice" or "a cold is a parent of a freezer".
'ilo pi lete kon' doesn't suggest anything now, but might in the right circumstances
I guess, it is a question of semantics, which is embedded in the templet "X pi Y". Do you have a full answer on it?

janKipo
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:49 pm

Well, 'pi' is unsemantic. That is, it serves a purely syntactic function which can then be put to any number of semantic purposes, as you note. As to whether there is a way to separate a cloth against cold from a cloth for cold, there are a variety, but all are longwinded unless the context actually allows that both are possible, So, in a situation where we both need gloves to handle cold material and gloves to cool down hot hands, I suppose we might distinguish 'len pi tawa lete' (for cooling hot hands) and 'len pi tan lete' (for toting dry ice, say). Most of the rest can be done similarly, with a little ingenuity. And most have other possible interpretations. It would, admittedly, be nice to avoid those alternate interpretations, but a mechanical procedure which does that but also produces a lot of dross is probably not the best way to go, especially if it involves leaving tp far behind.


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