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как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood - Page 3 - Toki Pona Forums

как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

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jan Alanto
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby jan Alanto » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:01 pm

I only see "sewi li tan e jan." meaning "God originated man." or "gives/is the reason to men (li pana e tan tawa jan/li tan tawa jan)". I would think of an expulsion with "li tawa e jan tan" (moved from), "li weka e jan" (make absent), "li tawa weka e jan" (moved "away").

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:14 pm

'tan' means "from" as a preposition, so "source, origin" as a noun (the core of the things which are objects of that preposition). In the verb position, then, it means "to be from". But, when converted to a transitive form (taking an 'e' object) it is causative: "causes the Direct Object to be from" "removed the direct object". This leaves the "from where?" up in the air, presumably supplied by context. In the case of Adam, we know from the story that it is Eden. It should be noted that 'lon e' is not the common expression for removing something, that is 'weka' (also a causative derivative). So, 'sewi li tan e jan Atan' is corect, just unusual.
'tan' has nothing (obvious) to do with creation or, in this configuration, reasons or causes. Creation belongs to 'lon' and 'pali', reasons and causes tend to be in other configurations 'tan' as a noun or preposition, not a verb.

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:22 pm

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:14 am


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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:51 pm

Not only is "ni li pi mi" ungrammatical because "pi" has to stand between two noun phrases, the second noun phrase has to consist of more than one word, so a single "mi" is not enough in order to justify the use of "pi".

I've got the feeling that you are relying to much on ellipses.

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https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:58 pm

It is hard to write technically ungrammatical tp, since, with a few obvious exceptions, any string of tp words has a grammar and, indeed, often several. In particular, almost any two word string has several grammatical analyses: noun noun, noun adj, adj adverb, verb adverb,, and verb noun (the last is often a genuine case of ellipsis, as I think you are using it). And most of these structures with most words have a number of possible readings. In most cases, however, most grammatical structures and most readings a given structure are relatively implausible, and much more so when compared with possible common errors. So, while 'lili waso' can mean "avian small thing" (egg, nest, nestling, feather, etc.), it is much more unlikely to do so than to be a mistake for 'waso lili', a standard form for chick/ nestling. And the same can be said for the meaning "paucity of birds" or even "smallness of birds", certainly in a contextless discussion.
I don't know where you get your ideas about 'tan', but they are remote from tp. 'tan' is a preposition, "from, because" As a result it is derivatively a noun meaning "origin cause" and, though rarely used, a transitive verb meaning "expel", say. The idea that God created man as expressed by 'sewi li tan e jan' conflates these two notions somehow. The situation is not helped by the fact that the straightforward expression of "Go is the cause/origin of man" is 'sewi li tan jan', which also means"God is from man". The expulsion notion, God birthed man in some sorta physical sense, requires a prepositions object, say 'insa': 'sewi li tan insa e jan'. To be sure, objects get dropped ( understood), but doing so in this case is guaranteed to make the whole incomprehensible.
Even in the old days of 'ni li pi mi', 'ni li jo pi mi' would have been very weird, since it is hard ( though legal) to read 'jo' as a noun after 'li'.

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janpona120 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:20 am


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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:14 pm

In these discussions,, a term like "ellipsis" is likely to be read as a term of grammar. So, much of what you said was unclear because there did not appear to be any cases of rule governed omission of sentential components. But it turns out apparently that you are talking about selection and focus and such like factors of composition that occur before sentences are (finally) formed. And yes successful poetry ( and prose, for that matter) does depend on these. And yes there may be a linguistic-- though not usually a grammatical -- intermediary, since most good writing is largely editing. Going from a paragraph to single word is extreme but possible, particularly in reframing prose to poetry. But, in the end, what emerges in language has to be grammatical or it is not language, just words. And then deletion transformations may play a role, as well as other sorts of conventions. So you English example works -- given the information that it is a poem. The tp less so, in the absence of further conventions. So far, tp requires a subject if it has a marked predicate. So 'ken la li Olin" doesn't work, though 'ken la oli' and 'ken olin ' ( which is closer to the translation given) do. Similarly for the next line, though 'ken ala' is not so clear even in context. 'Anu' is generally excluded from the class of content words, though I think it's use to mean "choice, choose" has occurred. It would still be puzzling to most people, I think.
You really I should try your hand at tp haiku, which seem to be a very natural form.

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:34 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: как сказать "кровь" на тп? --> telo suno = blood

Postby jan Pina » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:27 am



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