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whither toki pona?

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janMato
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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby janMato » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:57 pm


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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby janKipo » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:02 am

Have you been in touch with the Language Creation Society, a support group for conlangers (who tend to feel rather alone in their work)?
I am not sure that tp has any intention of being an auxlang in the usual sense, i.e., for international communication of a general sort (we all know where English is, after all). But it does have some claim to being a aid to psychological well being. While the evidence is anecdotal, the claim seems plausible (though not as much, perhaps, as for a language which is a bit more positive). It is, of course, a tool for examining minimality in language, and -- again with reservations -- seems to be working fairly well, if occasionally frustratingly.

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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby Mako » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:57 pm


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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:33 am

Yes, the question was for you. I am glad you don't feel alone, but the several hundred years of conlanging experience at one LCS meeting can be quite useful (I gather. I'm not a conlanger myself, but a professional epigone).
I'd like to borrow your bookmarks sometime; I have a few on board but have not made a systematic search for these, just what I come to by chance (tp spinoffs, philosophical languages, various comments here and elsewhere.)
The minimality question has to be relative to what the final result is: "the smallest language that can...". tp's aims are modest. that it can get you through most non-technical situations with good communication. Not that you can define everything in it, but that you can get people to get or do what you have in mind.
The idea that tp assumes a happy state is a good approach, so it only needs to have words for the anomalous events. Hmmmm! But we do still need to talk about quotidian events and, since they are most common, they should not require long paraphrases.

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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby Mako » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:42 pm


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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:47 pm

I'm not sure what "quasi commercial" is, but LCS is a registered non-profit. Ir's advantage over various internet based groups is that it does (well, has in the past at least) hold meetings for face-to-face time with other practitioners, including some of the best and many of the newbies. It also runs a contact agency to bring together people who make languages with people who want to use them for various purposes (mainly at the moment movies and tv show).
Appreciate any hints I can get about other languages. I am wrapped up in tp now, but it looks like it will soon be all tied up in a bow.
tp is not bad at ordinary things, but it does occasionally require some work, which might have been avoided.

Mako
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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby Mako » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:51 pm


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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby janMato » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:36 am


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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby janKipo » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:29 am

Well, 'awen' is probably a modal (M) rather than just a verb (V) but that doesn't change anything significant. Most tp words can (and many do) occur in several roles. The trick is to find a typology that allows us to predict with some precision what will happen when a word from one class is used in the native role of another class. Some general rules are clear, other phenomena don't yet seem to fit any roles. 'awen', as a vt, means "to keep, preserve", possibly also to "to guard, keep safe" and so on. So, as a noun, one expects it to mean, inter alia, "canned goods, preservation, waiting, ward, constancy, inertia, ..." As a modifier, one would expect "constant, steady, persistent, safe, enduring, ..." "sitting" doesn't seem to come in and that is because tp doesn't do collapsed relative clauses well (at all, probably). But there are a number of other possibilities, I'm sure, both for 'awen' and for "person at the head of the table" (itself a problematic expression). I would just use 'lon' since it is a very temporary job.
To be sure, several tp phrases have canned meanings that are hard to get around. But the official line is still that these are nonce forms pressed into service for immediate needs and not fixed. And we can tear them apart, in most cases, with a bit of context (as always). I think they should all be listed (have you done a run to find such critters? My list is hopelessly dated.), but officially as exemplars of how to do it, not as rules about what is to be done.

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Re: whither toki pona?

Postby Mako » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:29 pm



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