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mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar - Toki Pona Forums

mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

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mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:24 am


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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:52 am

Well, tp is NA, so 'tenpo seme', 'jan seme', etc.
That aside, I am very unclear what these categories are and how they will function
'en' has to go between items, even when it is primary, so 'en tenpo' and the like make no sense standing alone (and, of course, it doesn't make relative clause heads as suggested here).
From the point of view of a tidy grammar, a marker (which always disappears) for Subject would be handy in some cases, though hard to justify, since it NEVER appears.
Using 'anu' for "choice" seems a good idea, except that it gets into confusion with the two usual functions of 'anu'. 'wile' is overworked but seems t function in this rule adequately: 'mi ken wile e ni: mi moku e pan, anu mi moku e kili.
The rest is just too non-tp to be intelligible in this context, though I think it might make a viable language eventually.

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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:02 am


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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:53 am

Well, it is now clear that, word shape apart, this is a language totally different from tp. It does seem to help solve one problem in tp, but the context required makes that solution inapplicable to tp. It looks like an interesting language, but I wonder if a tp forum is the right place to advocate it and develop it.

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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:56 am


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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:12 am

Unfortunately, language is inherently conservative -- even constructed languages once they come to be used by a community. There is a growing body of texts that have to be taken into account at each step: does the change affect these texts, rendering them irredeemably obsolete, unintelligible. If so, the change will not be adopted, however brilliant it may be in absolute terms. So, there are unconscious restrictions even on the freedom of jan nasa ("not ordinary people", not "crazy people") to propose effective changes.
We should probably have a session of Daoism some time since I don't quite see the connection between it and your proposals.

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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:57 am


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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:11 am

Well, I have never been very clear on the relation between tp and Daoism. Despite books like Mysticism and Logic, and Alice, a mystical viewpoint seems to provide little guidance for a language, since one of its major points is just that words inevitably falsify preceptions. Simplicity here is just not making distinctions and thus not forcing things. Grammar is all about distinctions and rules and without them, communication beyond a certain level becomes impossible, But tp is certainly well beyond that level, so it needs rules, fine distinctions, categorizations -- all the things that Daoism isn't.

All that aside, if your system can generate all or most of the accepted sentences of tp with the same meanings, even if different syntax, then it is worth looking at within the tp context. If it can't (and your examples tend to point in this direction), then not. On the first alternative, it would be especially telling if you could provide better explanations for cases that are accepted but uncomfortable,

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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janpona120 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:48 am


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Re: mU-notation: a way to simplify tp-grammar

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:30 pm

Since I am being inspired by your work to write a think piece about how to deal with common tp problems, it would be useful to see how you deal with the three meanings of 'jan li moku' and the nine of 'moku li pona' (neither of which tp can deal with at all). What about the two reading of 'ona li pana e toma tawa mi'? (which tp handles with commas, if at all). How about a compact version of "The man who came to dinner stayed a month" 'jan li kama tawa moku. jan ni li awen lon tenpo mun' or possibley 'jan pi kama pi tawa moku li awen lon tenpo mun'? I have some idea -- derived from what I understand you to be saying -- about these but it would help me to understand you and to round out my own ideas to see your versions.

Dao: nasin
qi: kon
yin-yang meli-mije (I confess that after 60 years, I still can never remember which is which)
heaven-man -earth: sewi-jan -ma
ten thousand things: ali (some would say just 'mute')

'taso' mean "but; only, except; alone; isolated; unwed" none of these seem connected to Dao in any obvious way, though I can imagine all sorts of more or less arbitrary and fantastic lines to connect them.


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