Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

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janAsi
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Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janAsi » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:42 pm

Currently, yes/no questions are constructed two ways:
    * verb ala verb
    * verb anu seme
This proposal adds a third way:
    * seme la phrase
This has a number of advantages:
    * it is concise - no repetition of the verb
    * it occurs at the beginning of the sentence instead potentially the middle - the "anu seme" construct sounds great at the end of a sentence, but can be buried when prepositional clauses are added
    * it fits with an existing pattern of special single word contexts like "taso la"
    * it doesn't collide with either the contextual or conditional use of "la"
    * it suggests a meaning of "in what context is the following true?" Valid responses could be "lon" - the existing context or "ala" - no context.

janKipo
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:37 am

And also ‘ma anpa li kama kiwen lete’ and so on, so it isn’t a Y/N question form (but neither are the others, really).
‘taso’ is not followed by ‘la’ but stands alone as a conjunction, like ‘anu’ (but ‘anu’ doesn’t need a period, in spite of some usage)
‘anu seme’ comes at the very end of a sentence, after the prepositional phrases , if any, so won’t be buried.
“question coming” seems very different from conditions and context.
It is concise and it is nice to put it out front (like Esperanto and Lojban (sometimes), though this latter sounds like trying to be English again.

An interesting proposal, but not an obvious candidate for inclusion (for one, thing, we already have a number of solutions to this problem).

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jan_Lope
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:25 am

jan Asi o, toki!

BTW: Instead of "... verb anu seme?" it is better to say "... predicate anu seme?" because there is no form of the verb 'to be' like there is in English. That's why the verb slot can be empty. A noun then functions as a predicate noun or an adjective serves as predicate adjective. But this noun or adjective does not become a verb.

If you use "seme la .." the question pronoun (interrogative pronoun) seme represents a noun. A la phrase is a condition ("if ... then ..."). "seme la ...?" means approximately "if what then ...?" Or as you said "in what context is the following true?" But this is a different to a yes/no question with the adverb "ala" or a answer-question with the conjunction "anu". A yes/no question or an answer-question the possible answer is already included in the question. In "seme la ...?" the possible answer is not limited to "yes" or "no". How do you answer this question?

seme la telo kama, tan sewi? (Under what conditions does it rain?)

"Yes" or "no" as an answer is not possible here.
pona!
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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jan_Lope
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:42 am

jan Asi o, toki!

I have supplemented my lessons accordingly:

https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https:// ... 0000000000

Here the PDF version:

https://github.com/jan-Lope/Toki_Pona_l ... ons_en.pdf
pona!
jan Lope
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:19 pm

jan Asi o, toki!

Mind that "x la ..." is no different from "... lon x", so "seme la ..." would be the same as "... lon seme", which literally means "at what" and is used for asking "where".

So, "seme la sina pali?"/"sina pali lon seme?" wouldn't read as "do you work?" but as "where do you work?".
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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jan_Lope
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:32 am

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:Mind that "x la ..." is no different from "... lon x",


toki!

That's not accurate. The (compound) noun of the prepositional object after the prepostion lon or the
(compound) noun of the indirect object after the intransitive verb lon can in some cases be placed before la with nearly the same meaning. This only applies to location and time specifications and if the sentence contains only one predicate phrase with only one prepositional object.

The official Toki Pona book does not say that la phrases can be put after the preposition lon or the intransitive verb lon. For example, a conditional phrase before la can consist of a complete sentence with a subject and predicate(s). However, you cannot use a complete sentence as a prepositional or an indirect object.

The preposition lon introduces a prepositional object and means: be (located) in/at/on
The to intransitive verb lon introduces an indirect object and means: be there, to be present, to be real/true, to exist
A la phrase is a condition: If ... then ...
pona!
jan Lope
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:20 am

jan_Lope wrote:
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:Mind that "x la ..." is no different from "... lon x",


toki!

That's not accurate.


It is. It is what pu says. Plus, if-then-sentences require a comma. But I suppose you would rather talk about your changes to Toki Pona, right? You know your grammar better than I do, so I pass.

mi tawa.
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mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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jan_Lope
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:18 am

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
jan_Lope wrote:It is. It is what pu says.
mi tawa.


toki!

Please read pu page 52. Furthermore, I had explained that not all phrases in front of the separator "la" can be shifted after the preposition "lon" or after the intrasensitive Vern "lon".
pona!
jan Lope
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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janKipo
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:14 pm

Grammarly, the expression like 'tenpo ni la' come from terminal ,lon tenpo ni'. It seems just about all 'lon' PPs can be shifted thus and perhaps few others. Predicting what 'la' phrases can be shifted to terminal PP is much more risky and systematically based.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:04 am

jan_Lope wrote:
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
jan_Lope wrote:It is. It is what pu says.
mi tawa.


toki!

Please read pu page 52. Furthermore, I had explained that not all phrases in front of the separator "la" can be shifted after the preposition "lon" or after the intrasensitive Vern "lon".


Isn't me reading pu the premise of my observation?
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mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.


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