Tokiponido

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
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janTepanNetaPelin
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Tokiponido

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:00 am

toki!

I need words for "Tokiponido" and "Tokiponidist". Since Sonja created a forum "jan nasa li wile ante e toki pona" I think the term should contain "nasa", like so:

- "toki nasa" / "toki pi jan nasa" (Tokiponido)
- "jan nasa" / "jan pi toki nasa" (Tokiponidist)

The official Toki Pona in contrast could be called:

- "toki pona" / "toki pu" (the official Toki Pona)
- "jan pi toki pona" / "jan pi toki pu" (speaker of the official Toki Pona)

Too many posts mess these two concepts up and confuse Toki Pona with other people's Tokiponido, calling that Tokiponido "Toki Pona". Ike.

jan Tepan
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

janKipo
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby janKipo » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:11 am

Well, this whole text is subtly pejorative, suggesting that tp as it is used is somehow incorrect, while the version that exists only in textbooks is the real deal. Typical prescriptivist claptrap. And ignoring that the textbooks themselves don't even use the language they describe.
As for the name used in the title, it is simply inappropriate. Esperantido was a topdown conscious revision of Esperanto, led by a band of prominent Esperantists with a list of changes they wanted enforced on all other Esperantists, a coup, in short. What we have here, if anything, is users of the language developing in that use forms that differ from what the textbooks say (an often in areas where the textbook does not speak at all). Evolution, then, since it arises in and from living and is mostly unconscious.
So, i suggest that we call this language simply "toki pona" or, if we politely allow the textbook language a courtesy connection with that name, "toki pona lon". The textbook language is then "toki pona pu" or "toki pona Pije" depending on which version is set up as exemplar.
it is ultimately unclear what the fuss is about. The big differences seem to be whether or not to use 'e' with 'kepeken' and to use 'pi' with prepositional phrases modifying nouns (pu and Pije disagree on the first and neither discusses nor exemplifies the second, except by implication from a rule that neither actually uses). The difference seems to be about whether or not the language needs topdown control. But tp doesn't have even the rather loose sort of control that Eo has. Nor does it need it, since, unlike Lojban, rigorous adherence to an exacting standard is not required for its purpose, which is intelligibility, not monoparsing.
On the whole, simply acknowledging that there are dialects and setting out their parasmeters seems the sensible thing to do to hold the language community together. And, of course, not casting aspersion on a fellow tper whose dialect (even idilect) is different from youur own.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:51 am

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:- "toki nasa" / "toki pi jan nasa" (Tokiponido)
- "jan nasa" / "jan pi toki nasa" (Tokiponidist)


Taking Esperanto as an example and Sonja's word "Tokiponido" who created this very forum the following analogy arises:

- Esperanto ~ Toki Pona
- Esperantido, e.g. Ido ~ Tokiponido, e.g. what any "jan nasa" speaks
- Fundamento ~ Pu, the official Toki Pona book
- Sonja ~ Zamenhof

Maybe we can even create a list of Tokiponidos. :)
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

janKipo
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby janKipo » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:38 am

Well, I wouldn't mind being Peano, of course, but the analogy doesn't get beyond the dramatis personae. There is no coup here nor any central authority to impose or be deposed. There is just the evolution of a language actually being used versus an attempt to prevent any evolution. The attempt is likely to fail -- or the language likely to die or a central authority be brought into existence. Right now, the kerfuffle is merely getting in the way of getting on with tp, whatever you choose to call it. Keep your silly rule as long as you use 'pi' in an intelligible way; put an 'e' after 'kepeken'; for now, at least, we all understand. I hope you will also learn to understand tp as it is.

jan_Lope
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby jan_Lope » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:54 pm

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:Maybe we can even create a list of Tokiponidos. :)

I think there is only one Tokiponido. This is the personal slang of the person who spam this forum. He ignore the basic rules of Toki Pona and argue without any logic. Because of his funny comments I suggest as name for his slang: "toki mu, mu pi mu ,pi, mu mute".
pona!
jan Lope
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/ (Lessons)
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/dcg/ (Prolog and DCG)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of spamming.

janKipo
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby janKipo » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:44 pm

oops! Couturot. Also, of course, Sonja is not Zamenhof except as cretor, since she has not taken an active role in much of tp's history and certainly not a leadership role (no one has). Further, her book is not Fundamento but a report on her idiolect more than a decade into the history of the language. Finally, there has been no World or even National Conference and no declaration of inalterability. This all leaves tp to develop naturally, including the existence of (largely ineffective) conservative forces trying to keep to some imagined pristine state (though it is unclear exactly what that state is, since the sacred texts disagree almost as much as the Gospels). Now, the conservatives have a point: there are, at any given time, certain standards that cannot be ignored: li and e and word order, for example, and the broad vocabulary list (somewhat fewer than 130 words). Someone who violates those is not doing tp and has no claim on our attention -- except to try to correct them if they seem to be trying and merely failing.
As for throwing obscure insults around, they just get in the way of the community doing its thing and certainly don't advance the project (although the project not advancing is largely the insulers' goal, so this remark will have no force on them).

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:51 pm

jan_Lope wrote:I think there is only one Tokiponido. This is the personal slang of the person who spam this forum. He ignore the basic rules of Toki Pona and argue without any logic. Because of his funny comments I suggest as name for his slang: "toki mu, mu pi mu ,pi, mu mute".


Then the list of prominent Tokiponidos already consists of one item. :)

That person may be a spammer, but at least that Tokiponido is prominent now.
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

jan_Lope
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby jan_Lope » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:14 pm

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:


What do you think of "toki mu pi Add Foe"?
pona!
jan Lope
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/ (Lessons)
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/dcg/ (Prolog and DCG)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of spamming.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:21 pm

jan_Lope wrote:What do you think of "toki mu pi Add Foe"?


I had to read this one twice. :D
I will have to think about it. ;)
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

janSilipu
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Re: Tokiponido

Postby janSilipu » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:55 pm

glad to know my comments are funny, though that is not my goal. My idea is to stimulate discussion about perceived problems or unclarities with the hope of making tp a better channel of communication without making it more complex. Of course, if it is already perfect or is immutable even if imperfect, this is a silly exercise. but not everyone -- even among those who mainly adhere to a conservative standard -- think it is silly, even if they don't like suggestions for change so far produced. Even Sonja occasionally participates in these discussions, usually in the most radical ones (most recently restrictive relative clauses). And, of course, the fact that you think this is silly (and I do reciprocate) won"t stop me from going on observing, systematizing, commenting and correcting. But a little less ad hominem would make these forums a more appealing place to visit and to work.


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