mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
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jan Sipilin
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mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by jan Sipilin »

mi kepeken e nimi 'tan' sama Causativ. mi toki sin e toki Lunasimi pi ma Kusuko e toki pona. Causativ li lon toki Lunasimi. tenpo la mi toki e toki pona la mi pilin wile toki kepeken Causativ. taso toki pona li jo ala e ni. tan la toki pona li jo e nimi mute ala la Causativ li nisin pona tawa pali e nimi mute. jan li kepeken lon nisin ni:

Tenpo la sina jo e jan lili -jan lili li lon tenpo lupa wan- la ona li ken ala moku. taso nimi seme li toki e ni: sina kepeken ilo moku; jan lili li ken moku. nimi seme pi toki pona li toki e kama ni. mi kepeken e nimi 'tan'. tenpo ni la mi toki: "sina tan moku". taso tenpo la jan lili ni li moku kepeken luka pi mama meli e kili. la mi toki: "mama li tan moku e kili". pona pona? taso kama ni la mi sona pi jan lili li moku. tenpo la ni li pona pona ala la mi kepeken e nimi sin. mi toki: "mama li tan moku pi jan lili e kili".
pona. kama ante la jan pi toki pona li ken kepeken e nisin ni: sina kama sona kepeken nimi sona mi e ijo sin la sina toki tawa mi: "sina tan sona mi e ni".
Ni la pona pona tawa mi: jan pi toki pona li ken kepeken e nimi tan sama nimi Causativ la muti ken kama.


I use the word 'tan' as a causative. I also speak Quechua, next to Tokipona. In Quechua there is a causative. When I speak Tokipona I feel like I want to speak using a causative, but Tokipona doesn't have that. Because Tokipona has a limited vocabulary, the causative is a good way to generate more words. It is used this way:
When you have a child - a baby of one day -, it can't eat. but what words describe this: yoú use a spoon and now the child cán eat. What Tokiponan word describes what happens here. I use the word 'cause'. At that moment I say: "you caused to eat / you fed". But one time this child eats a fruit using his mother's hand. Then I say: "the parent causes to eat fruit". clear? But in these cases, we knew the child ate. When it is not clear, I use an extra word. I say: "the parent causes the child to eat fruit / the parent fed the child fruit".
Good. In other cases this same thing can be used: you learned new things through my wise words, then you say to me: "you caused me to know this / you taught me".
It's clear to me: if 'tan' can be used as a word of the causative, much can happen.
janKipo
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by janKipo »

musi. taso toki pona li jo kin e nasin "Causative" . toki pona li kepeken nimi 'kama' en nimi 'e'. 'mi wile kepeken nimi 'tan' e jan pi toki pona sama nasin "Causative". "I want to get toki ponists to use the word 'tan' like a causative"
jan Sipilin
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by jan Sipilin »

taso jan li ken taso toki: "mi tan sona mi e ni" kepeken 'kama'; jan li toki: "mi kama sona e ni".
jan li kepeken e nimi 'kama' sama Inchoativ. Tenpo la mi toki: "mama li kama moku e kili", la mama ni li moku. taso mi toki: "mama li tan moku e kili", la mama ni li moku ala, taso jan ante li moku kepeken luka pi mama. ni li tu. Aspect Inchoativ li ala sama Modalite Causativ.

'mi wile kepeken nimi 'tan' e jan pi toki pona sama nisin Causativ'. tawa mi, sina toki e ni la sina wile e ni: tenpo kama la jan pi toki pona li sama nisin Causativ; sina wile kin e ni, képékén nimi 'tan'. tenpo la sina toki: "tan", la jan ali pi toki pona li sama nisin Causativ. sina ken ala pali e ni. ante sina jo e wawa nasa. sina kepeken e nimi 'tan' lon kama ni la ni li pona pona: sina wile e ni: jan pi toki pona li kama kepeken e nimi 'tan' sama nisin Causativ.
janKipo
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by janKipo »

mi kepeken [e] nimi 'tan' sama NASIN “Causativ.” No 'e' with 'kepeken' in this usage. “ausativ” is a foreign word in foreign spelling so enclosed in foreign quotes. It is not a proper noun except as a name of a tense/mood/mode/whatever in Quechua, but, in any case, it needs to have a noun attached and 'nasin' seems as good as most.
mi toki sin [e] KEPEKEN toki Lunasimi pi ma Kusuko [e] EN toki pona. Speaking language x is 'toki kepeken toki x' ('lon toki x' also works) Since the two languages are not direct objects, you can use 'en' to join them. I always assumed the native name of Quechua was “Quechua”. Silly me! What lies behind 'Lunasimi' as (I assume, with trepidation) “Cuzco” lies behind 'Kusuko'?


NASIN “Causativ” li lon toki Lunasimi. tenpo la mi toki [e] LON toki pona la mi pilin wile? toki kepeken NASIN “Causativ.” taso toki pona li jo ala e [ni] ONA. Simply repeats ''nasin “Causativ”', not referring to the whole previous sentence. 'pilin wile toki' 'pilin' is not generally a modal, so the construction here is obscure. Maybe 'mi pilin e ni: mi wile toki...', but the 'pilin' really doesn't do anything at all.

tan la toki pona li jo e nimi mute ala la Causativ li nisin pona tawa pali e nimi mute. Total recast because 1) 'tan' doesn't have a well-defined role standing alone in a 'la' phrase, though this may be a suggestion for one (though a slightly more natural use would be for “originally, where we began”, going with 'tawa' “eventually, where we hope to end” and the existin 'lon' “in fact, where we are now”). But for now we have to change orders around a bit. 2) you can't have a verb phrase (with a direct object) after a preposition, noun phrases only. So, 'toki pona li jo e nimi pi mute ala. tan ni la nasin “Causativ” li nasin pona tawa ni: ona li pali e nimi mute. It doesn't make more words, of course, but it does generate a number of regular expressions.

jan li kepeken [ONA] lon nisin ni: Not strictly required, but clearer than the possibility “Somebody is useful in this way” (actually, 'ona li kepeken …' would work, too).

tenpo la sina jo e jan lili -?jan lili li lon tenpo lupa wan?- la ona li ken ala moku. The insertion is a new – but natural, I think, device in tp. But “A child on one hole day” doesn't seem to work. Maybe not a sentence but another NP 'jan lili pi tenpo suno wan taso'. Or 'lon' is mean for “has been alive” but then we need an expression for “for just one day” and we don't really have one.

taso nimi seme li toki e ni: sina kepeken ilo moku; jan lili li ken moku. nimi seme pi toki pona li toki e kama ni.
Maybe 'sona' rather than 'toki' for “describes”. And, of course, a spoon won't help feed a one-day-old; maybe a syringe, which isn't usually an ilo moku.

mi kepeken e nimi 'tan'. tenpo ni la mi toki: "sina tan moku". taso tenpo la jan lili ni li moku kepeken luka pi mama meli e kili. la mi toki: "mama li tan moku e kili". Prep phrase comes after object so '… moku e kili kepeken luka …' The idea seems to be to make 'tan' a modal “to cause to” but, as noted, 'kama' already does this. To be sure, using 'kama' in this way creates the problem of double objects, one for what is caused to do (i.e., direct object of 'kama') and one for the direct object in what is caused, e.g., the 'kili' in 'tan moku e kili' (which might, of course, be the DO of 'tan', “cause the fruit to be food”). 'tan' has this same problem, of course, which you avoid in your examples by leaving out one or both DOs.

pona pona? Coming to be a tp intensifier. The question mark suggests you mean 'pona ala pona', “clear” being, in context, a reasonable reading for 'pona'

taso kama ni la mi sona [pi] E NI: jan lili li moku. 'kama ni' is OK, but close to 'ni kama' “before that”; just 'ni' “in the situation just described”, which you use elsewhere, is enough.

tenpo la ni li pona pona ala la mi kepeken e nimi sin. mi toki: "mama li tan moku pi jan lili e kili". Oh, nice, “I cause the fruit to be the child' food” But that works for 'kama', too'. And doesn't work for many verbs other than 'moku'. 'pona sona' is also a good expression for “clear” and one of a favored tp type.

pona. kama ante la jan pi toki pona li ken kepeken [e] nAsin ni. 'ante la' is probably enough “otherwise”. No 'e' with prepositions, of which 'kepeken' is one.


: sina kama sona kepeken nimi sona mi e ijo sin Prepositional phrases after DO, so … sona e ijo sin kepeken nimi ...'

la sina toki tawa mi: "sina tan sona mi e ni". Either 'toki e ni tawa..' or 'toki e “sina … ni'” tawa mi'. I see that you have solved the double DO problem by attaching the causative DO unmarked to the altered verb. I don't think this will work in general, since too many potential objects can be taken as modifiers of the verb rather than objects. It also would seem to be more natural to attach the object of the causation to the causative element (or put it after the whole caused item. Treated as a single verb phrase – see the article at pckipo.blogspot.com, which is, admittedly, somewhat dated)

ni la pona pona tawa mi: jan pi toki pona li ken kepeken [e] nimi 'tan' sama nimi “Causativ” la muti LI ken kama.
janKipo
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by janKipo »

taso jan li ken ?taso? toki: "mi tan sona mi e ni" kepeken 'kama'; jan li toki: "mi kama sona e ni". Not clear what 'taso' does here “barely able”? Seems to be negative, in any case.

jan li kepeken [e] nimi 'kama' sama NASIN Inchoativ. Sometimes, but other aspects as well, alas.

Tenpo la mi toki [:] E "mama li kama moku e kili", la mama ni li moku. taso mi toki: "mama li tan moku e kili", la mama ni li moku ala, taso jan ante li moku kepeken luka [pi] mama. ni li tu. Actually, so far as I can see, the cases are exactly parallel, since you omit the intended DO of the causative in both cases. The mother causing something to be eaten, your 'tan' case, doesn't say who end up eating it. To make your case you need to say 'mama li tan jan lili moku e kili' , which more normally reads “The mother took the fruit from the edible baby” Or is it 'mama li tan moku pi jan lili e kili' “... took the fruit from the babies food”?

NASIN “Aspect Inchoativ” li ala <> sama NASIN“Modalite Causativ.” 'ala sama' is “destroys like” or “is nothing, like”, 'sama ala' is “is not the same as/like”

'mi wile kepeken nimi 'tan' e jan pi toki pona sama nAsin “Causativ'”. Here, interestingly, is another sort of causative, which avoids the double DO problem because 'kepeken' doesn't take a DO in its normal use. Nice usage!

tawa mi LA, sina toki e ni la sina wile e ni: tenpo kama la jan pi toki pona li sama nAsin “Causativ;” jan li nasin ala,li sama kin ala nasin. Not sure what you meant to say here; probably insert 'kepeken e nimi 'tan'' between 'li' and 'sama'

sina wile kin e ni, SINA képékén nimi 'tan'. tenpo la sina toki: "tan", la jan ali pi toki pona li sama nisin Causativ.
See just above.

sina ken ala pali e ni. ante LA? sina LI ?jo e wawa nasa. Not clear where punctuation goes, but some is needed. I think you want the 'li', not the 'la', except that I wasn't proposing a change of any sort.

sina kepeken [e] nimi 'tan' lon kama ni la ni li pona pona: sina wile e ni: jan pi toki pona li kama kepeken [e] nimi 'tan' sama nAsin “Causativ.” ala!

The double DO problem has two solutions, both fraught. Sticking with “The mother gets the child to eat the fruit” we can go with ' mama li kama e jan lili moku e kili' which separate the infinitive from the modal but keeps the caused close to the causation, or ''mama li kama moku e kili e jan lili', which cries out for at least a comma, since it naturally reads “The mother will eat the fruit and the baby”. Of course, the first also reads “The mother brought the edible baby and the fruit”, so needs a comma as well. You seem to have a third possibility (which is always nice to have when the first two are messy) 'mama li kama moku pi jan lili e kili', “makes the fruit be the child's food”, which seems to work with 'moku' but may not be generalizable. Still worth investigating further, regardless what to do about 'tan'
jan Sipilin
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by jan Sipilin »

Thank you for all the corrections; it helps a lot in learning.

Yes, Runa simi is the Quechua word for the "people language", which is Quechua. Sumerians also called their own language this (eme ĝir). "Causative" is mostly a general term for the linguistic phenomenon; Quechua just happens to have a causative. I only made that point to introduce my story, because, compared to for instance English, Quechua doesn't have a very large vocabulary either and I find that that vocabulary is not needed, because there are ways like the causative to generate more words, just like how Tokipona doesn't need a large vocabulary because it had many ways to still talk about many things. I should indeed have used 'nisin' though.

I meant the 'tan la (...) la (...)' as sort of "because (...), (...). I did not really know another way to express something like that...

That insertion had a mistake. I meant to say 'jan lili lon lon tenpo lupa wan' or something to express "(...) a child - a child only one day in existence -". But I didn't really know how to express that clearly any way else.
And if I feed a small child, I use a little spoon with soft food; a syringe seems a little extreme of the child is healthy, but just too young to hold a spoon himself.

When people try to say 'a landline telephone', but not 'a cellphone', some say "a phone-phone" to indicate the true meaning of 'phone'. I tried to do more or less the same with the reduplication of 'pona'. To intensify there is always the option of 'pona mute'. But 'pona sona' is a way better way; thank you.

The problem with 'kama' is that the causing of an activity isn't in the word's standard meaning, while 'tan' already has the meaning of a 'cause'. As known, 'kama jo' jeans "to get". From that, it is an easy assumtion that 'kama' has the meaning of causing, but shifting the meaning of 'kama' to an inchoative ("starting to", like in starting to have or starting to know), leaves room for 'tan' to be used as causative. As you pointed out, many solutions with 'kama' are quite ambiguous, but the last one might be useful, but doesn't really work without 'e kili'. 'tan' doesn't seem to be a bad solution in my opinion. It is weird - I admit - , 'tan' almost never being used as a verb, but I don't really see a generalisable way to form a clear causative construction. 'kama', already having the additional "starting to" meaning, might still create some ambiguity, while 'tan' is never used as a verb, so when it is, it's clear: this is a causative construction.
janKipo
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by janKipo »

'nasin'

I meant the 'tan la (...) la (...)' as sort of "because (...), (...). I did not really know another way to express something like that... (...) tan ni la (...)

That insertion had a mistake. I meant to say 'jan lili lon lon tenpo lupa wan' or something to express "(...) a child - a child only one day in existence -". But I didn't really know how to express that clearly any way else. 'jan lili pi tenpo suno wan' should usually work.

Well, what is in the standard meaning of 'kama' depends a lot on what word list you look at. As a modal (and so intransitive) is means "become" or "come". So, when made transitive it quite regularly (this is what transitivizing does) means "cause to become or come". the causative is not in 'kama' but in the transitivizing (I would expect the causative in Quechua is also the result of some minor change in the word). 'tan' is connected to causes in a different way: the cause is the complement of 'tan' ('tan ni' "this being the cause") so not "x causes y" is not 'x li tan y' but rather 'y li tan x'. To make life totally baffling, since the complement of 'tan' is generically a cause, a word for cause is also 'tan' (another regular thing) so now, the sentence *is* 'x li tan y' but the grammar of the case is totally different not Subj Prep Comp but Subj Noun Mod (there would need to be a 'pi' before y if it was nore than one word). But neither of these work forthe sort of modal you want, hence 'kama' again, a modal.

By the way, 'kama' is not great for the inchoative ("present in its causes before it occuts") but doesn't work at all for the initiative (starting up). which is clearly 'open'. 'kama' also works for the continuative (still going on, 'kama sona' being a case) and is even used for the perfective or perfect (arrived and staying). Aspect is not a tp thing.

'tan' does get a lot of use as a verb, at least as compared to say 'tawa' or even 'lon', but it has some 'x li lon ma tomo Sikako' "x is from Chicago" and even 'x li tan e y' "x got y away". And doubling up a modal and a preposition (similar critters) seems to be asking for problems.

But, thanks to you a lot! The double DO problem, which is the only problem with 'kama' that is not a general problem, has a solution from you. Double DO occurs only when what is being caused is s transitive verb, i.e., one that has its own object to be placed as well as the object of the causation. But, happily, the generic word for the DO of a given transitive verb is always the same as that verb (check it out!) So the causative notion now can be interpreted as causing something to become the generic object of the verb as owned by what we called the causative object: 'mama li kama moku pi jan lili e kili' "The mother caused the fruit to become the food of the baby" = 'Mother caused the child to eat the fruit". Needless to say, this underlying rationale is kept for the grammarians; real people only need to use the pattern. Thanks again.
jan Sipilin
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by jan Sipilin »

Oh I didn't know the Complement of 'tan' would become the actual "cause". Of that is The case, a verb form like this wouldn't make sence...

The final solution of "coming the x of y be z" is probably the best one then. Thanks a lot!

(By the way, yes, in Quechua it is a simple morpheme: 'yacha-' = to know; 'yachachi-' = to cause to know, to teach.)
janKipo
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Re: mi wile tan kepeken e nimi tan sama Causativ

Post by janKipo »

Working out how the pieces fit together from the short notes in the glossary is often difficult. I tried to do a bit more in pckipo.blogspot.com, but even that needs a lot of development. About the only thing I miss in tp (not that I would like to have necessarily, but notice as a lack) is a verb-noun-adjective-preposition distinction (an otherwise terrible tp offspring, Dama Dewan, has one it uses very effectively -- and the language needs all the help it can get). The case of 'ni li tan ona' as either "It caused this" or "This caused it" is a case in point, since 'tan' is a preposition in the second case and a noun in the first, but there is no way to tell, though it would appear with 'ona' replaced by 'pakala mute', say.

All that aside, you wrote a lot of pretty good tp in a tricky area to navigate. Thanks.
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