nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

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jan Lapale
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:13 am

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby jan Lapale » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:45 am

It's not about multiplication, but about how many times a number is repeated. And it's not an English calque, I am French so I did a copy of French: deux fois= tenpo tu= two times.

janKipo
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Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby janKipo » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:42 pm

Right, so it might just as well be a French calque. But <fois> in these expressions gets to "time" only in English translations. It seems to mean "occasion, occurrence", about a happening, not about a date. So, 'kama' seems a better calque, if we leave English out. But, as I say, maybe 'tenpo' is the right tp; I just worry about falling into the familiar without considering what is going on in tp itself.

jan Lapale
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:13 am

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby jan Lapale » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:40 pm

Yes, that's what I meant, "occurence, occasion".

janSilipu
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Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby janSilipu » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:09 pm

But that is not "time", at some appropriate level.

jan Lapale
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:13 am

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby jan Lapale » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:46 am

Yes, but there is a notion of time inside of those words. And in toki pona, words don't have a meaning that can't change, just a general idea. So you can create new meanings related to the word. For example, monsuta means monster, but some people had the idea to use it with the meaning "to be frightened", "to be afraid of".

janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby janKipo » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:19 am

Okay, now you are making a case independent of mere L1 (and L2) happenstance. I am not particularly convinced but I don't have any reason to object either.
What you say about tp words is true within limits -- but the limits aren't well-defined. 'monsuto' (which may not make the "final" cut for the word list) is a nice case in point. the central idea is fear, but it has been taken to mean both fearful and fearsome. If it is basically a verb meaning ''is afraid of, fears", then the meaning "monster" is fairly automatic (the genus of the DO) and hence the intransitive verb "is fearsome". If it is a noun, "monster." to begin with, then being afraid of something is just making that something into a monster, and frightening someone is siccing a monster on them (this notion is harder to explain from the initial verb). So far, the pattern has not been completely worked out. Nor has the limits of the fear involved -- does it include, for example, hatred or repulsion?

jan Lapale
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 3:13 am

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby jan Lapale » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:35 pm

Very good philosophical question. hate is more wile pakala I think, and repulsion is wile ala lon poka ona. In tp, when you need a word, you say the definition, for example tomo tawa telo= vehicle who moves on water= boat. The definition depends on how you think, so the word is not the same depending on who you are, you have to create your own words depending on the definition you give to it.

janSilipu
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:21 am

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby janSilipu » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:53 pm

Yes and no. You have to take others into account because you want to be understood. Too often a private expression misses because the reader doesn't get to the same place as the writer.

Cvi
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:18 am

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby Cvi » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:19 am

jan Lapale wrote:mi pali e nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/I created a way to count in toki pona:
ni li tan toki Nijon/This comes from the Japanese language
10=luka luka
20=mute
40=tu mute(2*20)
50=tu mute luka luka(2*20+5+5)
100= ali
200= tu ali
1 000= luka luka ali
2 000= mute ali
10 000= ali ali
100 000=luka luka ali ali
1 000 000= ali ali ali
wile la sina ken kepeken e nimi "pi"/ and of course you can use pi when it's necessary.


I would propose to use the existing numbers: ala, wan, tu and simply use them in a trinary (or ternary) positional system like in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_numeral_system

It stays within the existing roots, is logical but rather unusual - which would fit the character of toka pona.

Cvi
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:18 am

Re: nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/How to count in toki pona

Postby Cvi » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:24 am

jan Lapale wrote:mi pali e nasin nanpa kepeken toki pona/I created a way to count in toki pona:
ni li tan toki Nijon/This comes from the Japanese language
10=luka luka
20=mute
40=tu mute(2*20)
50=tu mute luka luka(2*20+5+5)
100= ali
200= tu ali
1 000= luka luka ali
2 000= mute ali
10 000= ali ali
100 000=luka luka ali ali
1 000 000= ali ali ali
wile la sina ken kepeken e nimi "pi"/ and of course you can use pi when it's necessary.


I would propose to use the existing numbers: ala, wan, tu and simply use them in a trinary (or ternary) positional system like in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_numeral_system

It stays within the existing roots, is logical but rather unusual - which would fit the character of toka pona.
I think that the numbers is the worst feature in toka pona, and this could be a good solution!


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