'pilin pona'

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
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janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

'pilin pona'

Post by janKipo »

Something someone wrote the other day (obviously, I can't remember any details) got me thinking about 'pilin pona' "feel good". This is an obvious calque of English and (perhaps therefore) an established tp usage. Yet it seems to be wrong-headed from a tp point of view. It looks like it should mean "do pilin well", whatever pilin is, rather than giving the nature of the pilin. Or, of course, it could give the nature of the pilin as "be a good feeling", but then it would obviously need a different subject from the usual 'mi'. On the other hand, the prima facie alternative for "feel good", 'pilin e pona', doesn't seem right either, since it seems to present a further thing beyond the pilin, something I feel, like 500 count Egyptian cotton sheets. But in tp what one feels is also a pilin, so "feel a good feeling" doesn't seem too far off. But then, what do we do with the sheets, which are not feelings but which we apparently do pilin. This is as far as I have gotten with this problem so far, but I would welcome some outside ideas. I do recognize that none of these thoughts are likely to change the status of 'pilin pona'.
jan-ante
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: 'pilin pona'

Post by jan-ante »

janKipo wrote:Something someone wrote the other day (obviously, I can't remember any details) got me thinking about 'pilin pona' "feel good".
this one?
This is an obvious calque of English and (perhaps therefore) an established tp usage. Yet it seems to be wrong-headed from a tp point of view. It looks like it should mean "do pilin well", whatever pilin is, rather than giving the nature of the pilin. Or, of course, it could give the nature of the pilin as "be a good feeling", but then it would obviously need a different subject from the usual 'mi'. On the other hand, the prima facie alternative for "feel good", 'pilin e pona', doesn't seem right either, since it seems to present a further thing beyond the pilin,
to give exact denotate one should use pilin as subject: pilin li pona or pilin sina o kama pona

PS this is a wrong chapter for your topic
janSilipu
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:21 am

Re: 'pilin pona'

Post by janSilipu »

Ni li lukin sama ante pi toki pona tawa mi.
O pilin sina li kama pona. Pilin mi li Jan ala li Ken ala Pali ee ijo toki.
toki pi toki sina li sama ala toki pi awen sona mi.
Ante la mi pilin e ni: sin toki li lon. Nasin sina li pakala pi lili mute li toki e sona ni. tasomi pili e ni kon: Jan pi toki pona li ante ala e toki ona.
janMato
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Re: 'pilin pona'

Post by janMato »

I'm guessing the key here is that feeling are experienced. In English, we like to force everything into a subject - verb - object pattern, even when the subject isn't doing anything and the object isn't on the receiving end of an action. Ergative languages fix this by focusing on who is the experiencer. Icelandic does this by making the verb impersonal (essentially dropping the subject) plus a dative, or using reflexive.

1) ijo li pona tawa mi. Things are good to me.
2) mi li pilin e sama. ni li pona. I feel me, this is good.
3) sama la mi pilin li pona. As for me, I feel, I'm good.
4) mi pona li pilin. "I (who is good) am feeling."
5) pona la mi pilin. la fragment as adverb.
* 6) li pona tawa mi. (something) is good to me.
7) mi pona li pilin sama e ni. I'm good and I feel (myself) this.
8) suno li weke e wawa linja la tan ni la pona li kama lon mi. The sun's shining, good comes into me. (I feel good.)
9) lawa insa mi li jo e pilin pona. My brain has a good feeling.
10) kon mi li jo e pilin pona. My soul has a good feeling.
jan-ante
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: 'pilin pona'

Post by jan-ante »

janSilipu wrote:Ni li lukin sama ante pi toki pona tawa mi.
seme li lukin sama ante pi toki pona?
O pilin sina li kama pona.
feel self, and you become good?
Pilin mi li Jan ala li Ken ala Pali ee ijo toki.
my feeling are not human and can not make something speakable
sina nasa anu seme? o pini e nasa sina
janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: 'pilin pona'

Post by janKipo »

ken la nasa.
taso, nimi 'ni' li sona e toki pini pi ni: jan li ante e nimi 'pilin pona'.
"May your feelings become good" rather than "O your feelings, become good" "feel (your)self" is 'pilin e sina'.
"My feelings are not people and cannot do what you say." That is, cannot be commanded or requested to behave in a certain way.
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