Pu anew

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
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Pu anew

Postby janSilipu » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:45 am

I was thinking about what 'pu' might have been meant for again. Given all the (little bit of) evidence, I have decided it must be as a speakable colon, that typographical connector between main sentence and various kinds of subordinates. This is one of only two places where significant partitionings of a sentence are totally unmarked in the spoken language, and would make for a second place where recursion is possible at the sentence level (adding (pu S) to the end of the basic sentence description).
The other place where speech is less informative than writing (or, at least, does not have clear or natural rules) is the matter of quotations, marked in writing by ' or ". I'm not sure whether anyone but a logician would see a need for saying these, so I'll leave them aside. The more or less required use of 'nimi' is probably sufficient for practical purposes.

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Re: Pu anew

Postby janMato » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Could you provide an example? I'll try to write one or two.

In the S: S. pattern, the goal is to make sure that it doesn't sound like a new actor is being introduced. Piraha is reputed to do this by requiring an additional sentence. A man walked in. A man was carrying a cat. These men were the same.

The woman hit the man who looked at other women.
1) jan meli li utala e jan mije ni: jan mije li lukin e meli ante. -- jan mije gets repeated, wordy.
2) jan meli li utala e jan ni: jan mije li lukin e meli ante.

Just as my personal style, I tend to write ni: when ni: refers to something in an upcoming sentence and I use ni. when ni reference to something said previously.

3) jan meli li utala e jan mije. ona li lukin e meli ante. -- ona here is useless, doesn't co-ordinate
4) jan meli li utala e jan mije. ona mije li lukin e meli ante. -- ona co-ordinates now.

Just as my personal style, I try to avoid using ona to co-ordinate with things outside of the sentence, so I would have avoided ever writing #3, or #4.

5) jan meli li utala e jan mije pu jan mije li lukin e meli ante. -- I guess pu signals that the guy in S2 isn't a new actor, which the above 4 examples doesn't (as strongly).

- a different one with a different meaning (The woman hit the man that other women were looking at)
jan meli li utala e jan mije pu meli ante li lukin e jan mije.

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Re: Pu anew

Postby janSilipu » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:19 pm

Something like that, I think, though I find your habits unduly restrictive. On the other hand, using 'ona' at all isroblematic when there are more than one pluasible nouns before -- a greater likelihood across sentence boundaries. Things like 'ona mije' help. I tend and recommend using 'ni' pronominally for thinks that can be pointed to, either a sentence or an extra
Iinguistic object, not just for anaphora. Back references with 'ni' are pretty much confined to 'tan ni la'
The whole idea of 'pu' introducing subordinate clauses does make me start to think about breaking the order rules a bit, e.g. 'jan meli li utala e Jan mije pu e jan mije [something, I suppose] Jan meli ante li lukin'. The something is a serious problem, though, so I'll drop that whole thing unless 'pu' can play a pronominal role here.

jan Akesimun
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Re: Pu anew

Postby jan Akesimun » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:18 am

Since it's pretty clear by now that jan Sonja isn't going to be picking this up again, why can't the community just define it by consensus?

toki li ken ala ante. tan ni la toki ni li moli.
Yo estuve aquí.

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Re: Pu anew

Postby janSilipu » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:40 am

We have been doing that for a couple of years, at least, though nothing much has been said "officially". Just keep creating tp text and things will get settled. I'm not sure I want to start using 'pu' in this way yet though.

Toki li Ken ala ante la ona li moli.

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