Numbers again!

[Jan KoAla]

After my first naive jump into things I've had some time to think about it. It reall does bother me (probably a lot more than it should) that toki pona doesn't have numbers. As I see it, the numbers are still there, everyone is just importing their native language to say or think them, which is to say to neither solve nor be averting numbers.

Many systems that people come up with try to merely bend the rules, but come out incredibly complex and no one would ever use it for anything beyond a novelty of sorts (as is the case with the current system).

So, I was reading the wikipedia article on the Hebrew alphabet and noticed how the letters also have numeric value. This made me remember something jan Kipo said about how toki pona letters should have names. Combining the two creates the base for a real number system. I also happened to read something about the way numbers work in lojban. For those who don't know, 0-9 have names and then other numbers are just read out as digits (11 is oneone; 10 is onezero).

So, I started thinking about how to implement this in a nice way and wanted to avoid creating existing words with possible number combinations, and needed to be able to be combined to create the larger numbers (has to be CV).

1 je
2 ke
3 le
4 me
5 ne
6 pe
7 se
8 te
9 we

And it was almost perfect, except there needs to be a zero. I thought just importing zero from lojban "no", but maybe you could work a metaphor into "ko" being zero too. I'll be using "no" for this explanation though.

0 no

This allows for all kinds of numbers to be easily expressed.

100 jenono
1000 jenonono
1997 jewewese

Then, I remembered something else jan Kipo talked about in needing decimals and negatives. So I thought the quick answer is using pu for decimals and anpa for negatives. Allowing things like

27.15 kese pu jene
-900 wenono anpa

The last thing I remembered is jan Kipo talking about being able to scale up (and down) easily as well. I think this could be done using mute and ali as "zero markers" but I haven't thought about that much. But, for example's sake, let's say mute fills 3 zeros (drawing from lojban's number system again)

9000 we mute
9000000 we mute mute
9000000000 we mute mute mute

Let me know what you all think !

[Jan KoAla]

I was going to just edit this in, but it's different enough I think to seperate by a post.

___________________________________________________________________________

Apparently, toki pona already has names for its letters. Who knew?

http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/Alphabet

Alphabet

Letters of the alphabet can be called sitelen kalama, literally symbols for sounds, or sitelen for short.
a sitelen Alepa
b sitelen Peta
c
d
e
f
g sitelen Kama
h
i sitelen Jota
j
k sitelen Kapa
l sitelen Lameta
m
n
o
p sitelen Pi
q
r
s sitelen Sima
t sitelen Ta
u
v
w
x
y
z sitelen Seta

I guess this system could still work without much problem and still be considered more or less canon then (a bit of a stretch, I know.) But, for the sake of experimenting, I'll work it out here and see how it could look (without giving them something to modify to keep things more compact).

1 a sitelen Alepa
2 b sitelen Peta
3 g sitelen Kama
4 i sitelen Jota
5 k sitelen Kapa
6 l sitelen Lameta
7 p sitelen Pi
8 s sitelen Sima
9 t sitelen Ta
0 z sitelen Seta

100 Alepa Seta Seta
1000 Alepa Seta Seta Seta
1997 Alepa Ta Ta Pi

27.15 Peta Pi pu Alepa Kapa
-900 Ta Seta Seta anpa

I don't really like it. I also don't really understand why some letters have names and others don't. While being marginally more "official" it lacks giving names to all the letters in toki pona (while giving names to letters that don't exist!).

[jan-ante]

so, how many new words you introduce just to mimic a decimal system? and what should we do with wan and tu? in my opinion the positional numbering system should not be decimal, in toki pona ternary (base 3) with numbers ala wan tu in inversed (relative to european system) order of digits, i.e. 9= nanpa (pi) ala ala wan. but when is suggested this 2 years ago, they said this is too complex (while the decimal system is probably simple).

[Jan KoAla]

I did think about "wan" and "tu" and couldn't cume up with a good answer. Maybe just having them still be there would be fine. Languages can have more than one name/method for numbers. As for the actual method. While a tertiary or other seemingly reasoned number system might not add words, it does not really solve the problem either.

What I mean to say is that, everyone is already adding new words to toki pona, namely their own native numbers (because numbers are either inexistant or too annoying in toki pona). So, while it might seem strange to make all these "new words" to have a decimal system, toki pona WILL have a decimal system with "new words" (by and large) because that's how people will read/think numbers naturally, in their native language (because numbers are too annoying to read them in toki pona, but they will still be there.)

[jan-ante]

While a tertiary or other seemingly reasoned number system might not add words, it does not really solve the problem either.

then could you formulate the problem first?

What I mean to say is that, everyone is already adding new words to toki pona, namely their own native numbers (because numbers are either inexistant or too annoying in toki pona).

like this:
three - 3
four - 5
five - 5 etc
then should we add anything else?

So, while it might seem strange to make all these "new words" to have a decimal system, toki pona WILL have a decimal system with "new words" (by and large) because that's how people will read/think numbers naturally, in their native language

to me this is not a valid argument. e.g. lojban is much more "unnatural" than non-decimal numbering, but people learn it and use it. but you might be right, it may be too late to introduce non-decimal numbering in tp. it should come in initial "installation package". on the other hand, it is too late to add 10 words for decimal numbers either. so, we can use either coin system or 1234, which could be typed with any keyboard

[Jan KoAla]

I mean that any non-decimal system would be too complicated and not worth the time invested to get used to it.

What I mean by people using their own words (I didn't explain it very well, sorry!) is that we will always see numbers, and unless it's as easy to think of the number in tp as our native language, it probably won't pick up. As is the case now. What I mean by it will have those new words no matter what, is that unless there is an easy way to see any number and say it, then people will just fall back on their native language (or another language, whatever may be the case).

I can see your side too though, and I didn't do the best in explaining myself (and probably still haven't done so). However, using 1234 (arabic numerals) is exactly what people do, and is adding all those new words into tp, just under the mask of a symbol. It becomes a problem if you're trying to read/talk to someone/think things in tp.

[Kuti]

The aim of TP is to get rid off complicated things, such as numbers, so don't use the numbers
but i already said that
mi jan nasa

[jan-ante]

I mean that any non-decimal system would be too complicated and not worth the time invested to get used to it.

i am imressed to see that tp is a sort of investment for you. for me it is a game of words. you want to change the rules by adding 10 words for decimal digits ignoring some existing words for them. will it make the game more interesting? no, i think. could the ternary system make it more interesting? i think yes it can. but not in case of current cohort of tp users. i.e. this rule should be declared initially as a part of language to attract the proper people. now it is too late.

What I mean by people using their own words (I didn't explain it very well, sorry!) is that we will always see numbers, and unless it's as easy to think of the number in tp as our native language, it probably won't pick up. As is the case now.

i agree that the life without numbers is more complicated than the life with them (and therefore disagree with Kuti's point above). but to me the decimal system is not an optimal one. it is surely less suitable than e.g. octal. so i would really welcome non-decimal language. and i dont see any relationship between (un)popularity of tp and lack (presence) of words for 3...9.

What I mean by it will have those new words no matter what,

is it english?

is that unless there is an easy way to see any number and say it, then people will just fall back on their native language (or another language, whatever may be the case).

is that a problem? the rules are quite clear: express yourself with current set of words. you want 123?
nanpa 123 li tu wan en luka pi tu tu pi luka wan (i.e. 123=3+5*4*6). want 2011? 2+7*7*(5+6*6). this is just a game.

However, using 1234 (arabic numerals) is exactly what people do, and is adding all those new words into tp, just under the mask of a symbol. It becomes a problem if you're trying to read/talk to someone/think things in tp.

no, only when one talk to someone, which is quite seldom in tp

[Jan KoAla]

You know, you make some good points. I think we're on different pages on this whole thing is what it comes down to. I mainly only use tp to talk to other random people, so it is an issue that comes up. I've even voice-chatted a few times on Skype with people, where it has come up again. I think that to a lot of people think of toki pona as a kind of puzzle game, that isn't meant to ever be taken seriously as a language (or not as seriously as other languages).

However, I personally (even though I probably shouldn't) care mostly about the practicality of tp.

I also agree with you that the stranger number systems are more fun! And they don't "break the rules" so to speak. However, what I think happens in conversation (or just reading) is that the rules are broken anyway and there's no real solution. I could even say that tp could benefit from having the kind of prestige/fun number system for having fun/"following the rules" and a practical number system for actual communication.

I agree with you that having a base 3 or 8 or 1240987219807 number system could be loads of fun, and honestly would welome it for whoever, but I'm curious what you think about its use in practical situations.

What I mean by it will have those new words no matter what,

is it english?

I think it needs some quotes: 'What I mean by, "it will have all those new words no matter what,".....'

[jan-ante]

I mainly only use tp to talk to other random people, so it is an issue that comes up. I've even voice-chatted a few times on Skype with people, where it has come up again.

i use tp in this forum only and i never spoke it to somebody else. but now i see the problem. could you bring some practical examples, to make the situation clear?

I agree with you that having a base 3 or 8 or 1240987219807 number system could be loads of fun, and honestly would welome it for whoever, but I'm curious what you think about its use in practical situations.

could you again bring an example of the practical situation? e.g. if you want to compare two octal (and other) numbers, then the rules are exactly the same as with decimal