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Case - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

Case

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
janMato
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Re: Case

Postby janMato » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:46 am

I don't think all caps would have flown. All caps means shouting (THIS IS SPARTA!) and really is slower to read (it's been tested!). The cap on the proper modifier lets you know that the word isn't mispelled and disambiguates jan meli from jan Meli, which are different things, as I said earlier.

I like thorn, I don't like conlangs that don't have a commonly available computer keyboard-- so while I gripe about Na'vi and Kelen for being untypable with any keyboard you might find on a modern OS, like Windows XP/7, Mac or Linux, I wouldn't gripe about a language that had to be typed with the Icelandic or French national keyboards because that is not a burden. Typing Alt + a three digit number is a burden.

It's not that I feel all that strong about the rule pro or again-- even if I like the idea of capitalizing sentences, the convention isn't going to catch on. (well it could, but odds are long). To get a convention to catch on, either jan Sonja would have to get involved (unlikely, she's busy with her day job), this unorganized mob would have to simultaneously lurch in that direction (possible but unlikely), or we'd have to set up an effective language governance structure that people would respect-- more like the wordsmith in Iceland which are effective *some* of the time and less like the Academie Francaise which is the poster child for ineffective language governance. And the problem there is that there is no money in conlangs-- effective governance would require more-than-just-a-hobby quantities of time.

It's most effective to rail against areas of toki pona that are seriously broken, rather than the annoyances. For example, the verb (everything between li and e) is underspecified. A rich toki pona sentence fills all available slots. But I can't do much with the verb other than a few modals, a negation a root verb and one of about 4 small adverbs (lili, suli, mute, kin).

Jan KoAla
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Re: Case

Postby Jan KoAla » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:31 am

Well, this is a rather interesting topic.

I think, what it boils down to, is that somebody said it's this way, people do it this way, it will be this way. If you want to push a change, it will either not catch on or fracture the already smallish community. I'm fairly certain everyone could find something that they could improve in toki pona, but that would mean trying to rally people behind it and whatnot. I really do believe you that it doesn't make sense, and it probably is because of a fleeting quirky thought. But, it's here now and it can't be pushed away.

To me, the far greater issue where this comes up is numbers. It's in the same vein, except everyone comes up with their own way to deal with it or something.

But, as I've learned, it's just a hobby really. Nobody is taking it too seriously, because, well, what's the point?

However, I think, and I think other people might be with me too, if there was anybody to really just go at it and make consistent toki pona texts, these things could be flattened out. As in the previous mentioned examples for case in other languages, where one form or another just went out of style due (to what I assume to be) to popular taste.

szilard
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Re: Case

Postby szilard » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:11 pm

jan Mato, I agree, I am happy to hear everything is OK with Sonja.
Actually capitalization could be used for at least some of the problems you write about. First letter cap means borrowed word follows. Last letter cap could have a special meaning too. For example borrowed Esperanto word ending affecting previous word for clear grammar. LOL, this could look really weird:
me pona e ilo pona INDA.

janKipo
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Re: Case

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:30 pm

Evertype must hate Lojban, which uses no capital letters, except to show odd stresses (not penult). And, if the first letter of every sentence were capitalized, we would gave a page full if 'I's.

janMato
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Re: Case

Postby janMato » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:52 pm


janKipo
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Re: Case

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:03 pm

For this sort of thing I like (and may even have done) writing 'e nimi Kanse "..." since quotations are proper names and so need a head.

Jan KoAla
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Re: Case

Postby Jan KoAla » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:08 pm

Thinking about it a bit, I've found an excuse that I'd be interested to see what others think.

Similar to what jan Mato was talking about earlier, I think that the captitalzation is useful, in a less annoying way then say ALL CAPS to demarcate foreign words. The reverse of that is how the usual non capitalized words are kind of blocks of toki pona. Kind of like looking at the official words of toki pona as if they were all Chinese Chatacters. So, changing them also makes them no longer toki pona.

I thought about how lojban doesn't capitalize either, but they have a different (and more complete) system all together. I think (or guess), at the root, it's the incomplete and unexplained nature as to "why" that is bothering Evertype.

Making all toki pona red is an interesting idea. :D

szilard
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Re: Case

Postby szilard » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:22 pm


janSilipu
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Re: Case

Postby janSilipu » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:45 pm

Btw, I thought that specific names of plants and animals were explicitly not to be tped. But the boundaries are getting thin, perhaps to the "anything goes" level. soweli Peli Tometika, anyone?

Kuti
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Re: Case

Postby Kuti » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:23 pm



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