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Toki Pona Forums • Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)
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Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:26 pm
by jan Ape

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:49 pm
by janMato
Pronoun dropping seems like a logical choice for a simple language. Funny jargon: both means "that pronoun you have to use even if it doesn't mean anything e.g. It rains" and "cuss words"

An interesting by product of using the Swadesh list is that we can calculate the number of years separating Pale and toki pona (if they were in a hypothetical world where one evolved to the other).

ln (%congnates)/.14 = # millenniums
ln(.13)/-.14 = 14,000 years.

Hmm. I know I did a pretty quick count and got about 13 cognates, so maybe my math is off, but I seem to be at least 13,990 years high, since toki pona has only been here 10 or so years.

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:26 pm
by janKipo
Remarkably accurate for glottochronology, which made every known mistake and invented a few new ones (though I failed one part of my comps for saying so). Dropping first and second person usually makes sense -- though I would miss them -- but third, with the necessity to actually repeat a lot of the time, is less desirable, I think. Still, be nice to see how it works out. It might even give tp some pointers. Oh, several of the problems with glottochron were in the compiling of the list, which proved to be a less than universally applicable tool (to put it mildly -- it didn't work for the second pair of languages it was tried on).

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:39 am
by jan Ape
I've gotten around to doing a few translations.

Lord's Prayer (nesa na sopa no kana) - the desire toward sky parent

no kana na sopa - parent at sky
o nome e pona - oh [your] name is good.
pope o mosa na ko loko - [your] nation , please move toward this place.
o pase nesa na tela mo sopa - please do desire at earth and sky
o lansa pane ko - please release bread today
o lansa tela te no pona - please release [our] earth from evil
no ate na lansa te no pona te ate masa - not different to the releasing of evil of other people
o no toma na no pona nesa - do not take [us] to evil desire(s)
o toma te no pona. - take [us] from evil.
o - please, amen, thank you

(Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

tota mana e toma na sana leka no sanpo mo no ate na sanpo te pope. mase sape mo pensa te sana mo nesa pase na ate mana leka tama te mana.

all human be taken to life with no control and no difference to the law of the people. [they] have knowledge and mind of life and desire do to other human(s) with power of human(ity).

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:45 am
by janPeka
This is really neat. Any updates on this?

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:56 am
by janKipo
Not here, obviously, but nowhere else I know of either. Developing a language can be a real burden once the first flash of inspiration is done. I suspect that jan Ape just ran out of steam after the push of that one day 5 1/2 years ago. And no one picked it up (which is usually crucial for this sort of thing).

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:32 am
by janPeka
Oh well. I love the idea of no pronouns.

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:51 pm
by janKipo
The problem with no pronouns is that it makes for very wordy sentences, since you can't abbreviate as much as pronouns allow. And, if it means not only not anaphoric pronouns but also not first and second person ones it gets pretty long-winded indeed. But I see that those personal pronouns are just omitted, filled in by context. Still, I suspect there are problems since even languages that usually omit such words have them for when they are needed. (tp could do without quite a few occurrences but its strict word order requires subject and verb in every sentence -- though not every utterance, of course.

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:03 am
by jan_Lope

Re: Pale (minimalistic language without pronouns)

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:58 am
by janKipo
So, Lope missed the comments above and seems not to have noticed the original date, either.