mi wile ante e toki pona

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
jan-ante
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by jan-ante »

bronger wrote: I don't know how this Russion "r" sounds like, but one should stick to the rule to pronounce "l" like in the English "long" even if it doesn't appear in your native phonem system.
read classics:
jan Sonja wrote:Flexibility
----------------
Because there are so few sounds in Toki Pona, there's a lot more freedom on how you can pronounce each letter. This makes Toki Pona easy to pronounce for anybody in the world, regardless of their language background or accent.

For example, the letters b, d and g are not used. They're very similar to p, t and k. Therefore, if you had a cold, you could say dogi bona instead of toki pona, and it would still be correct.

Many languages don't distinguish between l and r. Toki Pona prevents this problem by only having l. Many languages don't have an f sound, just p. And so on.
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jan Ote
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by jan Ote »

jan Bronger o!
but one should stick to the rule to pronounce "l" like in the English "long" even if it doesn't appear in your native phonem system.
You are wrong. Tokiponian way is to not force users to learn new phonemes.

And the problem is not in a single sound. There is "l" in Russian. A soft one, like in "li" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:Ru-%D0%BB%D0%B8.ogg), and a hard one, somewhat similar to [w] (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:Ru-% ... %D0%B1.ogg). (Is it more like English "call" or "cow"? I tend to hear more similarity in ->[w] than in [l]->[w], and more [w] than [l] in "лъ"). They are different, but both are transcribed as "l". Then, "ала" and "аля" are transcribed as "ala", although they are written and pronounced differently. And now: some syllabes or phoneme chains are more natural in Russian (the same for my language and many others, nicht war?).
I suppose that "ми моку э тело наса" is used instead of "телё" because the first one fits better.
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by bronger »

jan Ote wrote:jan Bronger o!
but one should stick to the rule to pronounce "l" like in the English "long" even if it doesn't appear in your native phonem system.
You are wrong. Tokiponian way is to not force users to learn new phonemes. ...
I said "should" and meant it that way. If we ever meet in real life, we want to understand each other after all. So if there is no other way, that's okay. But for example, "w" and "r" are much farther away from "l" than "t" is from "d".
Torsten Bronger
jan-ante
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by jan-ante »

jan Ote wrote:
But seriously, standard transcription of "л" into "l" makes some problems. I've heard a Russian pronouncing a tokiponian word "luka" just like лука, i.e. [~wuka]. Isn't it better to use original Russian рука ([ruka], "arm, hand")? Given that [l] and [r] are allophones in Toki Pona, while [l] and [w] are not. What is your opinon about those tokiponian "l", "r", "w"?
well i have nobody to communicate orally in tp, i use it only in written form and only in this forum (for now). but in my mind i pronounce according to the russian transliteration
l л
w в
etc, and, most importantly,
e-> е, not э.
as a consequence, i use a standart palatlisation rule for consonants (and for i/и too). i find this very helpful, since ала and але are clearly different. but for english native speakers it could be a challenge to understand века
jan-ante
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by jan-ante »

bronger wrote: I said "should" and meant it that way. If we ever meet in real life, we want to understand each other after all. So if there is no other way, that's okay. But for example, "w" and "r" are much farther away from "l" than "t" is from "d".
that is a big question what will happen if we meet. but you know, i spent 4 years in bavaria and i spoke english to them, but with russian pronounciation of l/л, and i had no understanding problems with germans. for russians, the german english is the most understandable except other slavic nations. so i expect some problems with communicating to frenchs and americans, but not to germans and poles
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jan Ote
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by jan Ote »

jan-ante wrote:but for english native speakers it could be a challenge to understand века
Then again this might be easier for jan Bronger tan ma Tosi ([veka] -> adj., adv. weg) :D
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by janKipo »

I had heard that Polish had l/w problems; sorry to hear about Russian too. Back to my favorite mess: sewi seli suwi suli. Hard to solve, though.
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by bronger »

jan Ote wrote:...
But seriously, standard transcription of "л" into "l" makes some problems. I've heard a Russian pronouncing a tokiponian word "luka" just like лука, i.e. [~wuka]. Isn't it better to use original Russian рука ([ruka], "arm, hand")? Given that [l] and [r] are allophones in Toki Pona, while [l] and [w] are not. What is your opinon about those tokiponian "l", "r", "w"?
I just asked my Russian collegue to pronounce all this, and "л" really is *very* close to "l".
Torsten Bronger
jan-ante
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by jan-ante »

bronger wrote:I just asked my Russian collegue to pronounce all this, and "л" really is *very* close to "l".
then take your chance, ask him to read the following:
(ударение на 1й слог!!)
ала
але
алэ

and feel the difference. the 1st is ala, the 2nd is ale in my pronouciation, the 3rd is what should be said
jan-ante
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Re: mi wile ante e toki pona

Post by jan-ante »

janKipo wrote:I had heard that Polish had l/w problems; sorry to hear about Russian too.
well, not really. may be this is for polish ear only
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