feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
pisku
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feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by pisku »

wiki is a hawaiian word for "fast" it could be used to determine speed in toki pona.

But whatever I will be checking other languagues because it seems toki pona is losing some words (where is noka?)
and I have been reading some people want to erase kepeken? and leave only 20 words? thats too much! (or too little) hehe!

maybe I will make a toki pona based language I don´t know...
janKipo
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by janKipo »

Join the party. 'wiki' seems reasonable, but once we start letting words in, the minimality thing goes out the door. Dropping 'kepeken' for 'ilo' is just a case of getting rid of redundancy, although it may turn out that one does something the other can't do readily. Not sure yet.
Kuti
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by Kuti »

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Last edited by Kuti on Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
pisku
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by pisku »

Kuti wrote:kepeken is more a verb and ilo is like a name no?
mi kepeken e ilo
mi ilo e ilo (?) :? sounds weid
yes. kepeken is "to use"

and ilo means "tool"
janKipo
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by janKipo »

Any worse than 'mi moku e moku'? or 'mi kepeken e kepeken', for that matter -- nouns from transitive verbs tend to be the general class of the DO. I expect 'ilo' as a transitive verb would come from the noun in the usual way: "make DO into a tool."
janMato
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by janMato »

kepeken is one of the few prepositions, so it is a function word. I don't have any evidence yet, but I still think polysemy function and content and content words is like trying to mix oil and water. If people were speaking toki pona, I suspect tawa would be one of the first words to acquire two pronunciations depending on if it is a prep or a verb/noun/adj.

A hypotethical tp dialect without kepeken would have to use ilo for the instrumental, and we'd have one more instance of garden pathing (are we starting a PP or is this an adjective?)

If this was taken to its logical conclusion, then lon=ma, poka=kulupu(?), sama=wan, tan=mama, tawa=kama (then it would mean motion of either sort and need a another word to know if it was to or from!)

I say small languages should keep their content and function words apart.
janKipo
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by janKipo »

'kepeken' is V, basically a transitive verb. And prepositions aren't function words anyhow ( not like 'li', say). I don't quite understand the next sentence, but it seems to say content words and function words should not be the same word(though, as noted, the example is not a case of that). But 'kepeken'' already does the same garden-pathing as the hypothetical 'ilo', so this is not an objection to the change. One could pursue this reductionism in the way you suggest (not exactly a logical conclusion but coherent line of development), but all your examples involve obvious losses (place does not equal dirt, for example). But is harder to see what is lost by dropping one of 'ilo/kepeken', aside from requiring the remainder to serve as preposition.
janMato
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:'kepeken' is V, basically a transitive verb. And prepositions aren't function words anyhow ( not like 'li', say). I don't quite understand the next sentence, but it seems to say content words and function words should not be the same word(though, as noted, the example is not a case of that). But 'kepeken'' already does the same garden-pathing as the hypothetical 'ilo', so this is not an objection to the change.

function words occur much more frequently than content words and they resist being uses as content words. Eg. in Icelandic (for lack of existance or ignorance) I can only think of one, handa, which means "to" as in hand it to somone, and hand (with slightly different endings of course). And when content words become function words, they change pronunciation, lose their original meaning. So the prediction would be that preps would acquire different pronunciations and kepeken would become 2 words. After that had happened, kepeken and ilo prolly still wouldn't collapse into one word because one is a prototypical verb and the other is a protypical noun. Words that are protypical something are useful because you don't need a nominalizing construction or a 'verbalizing' construction. e kepeken means usage, whereas e ilo means tool. If we had only ilo, then we'd need an entire new sentence to emphasize "usage" rather than the static qualities of tools.
janKipo
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by janKipo »

Well, the Icelandic example is very much like the case of 'kepeken', except that it is a noun, not a verb, that shifted to a preposition. It may be that 'kepeken' will come to be pronounced noticeably differently as a preposition, but that's gonna take a generation or so. I don't know of a case of a function word becoming content (I think even the Chinese apparent doublets go the other way).
'kepeken' does, of course, mean "usage, using". It also means "tool", but is rarelly. if ever, used for that, since we have 'ilo'. Were 'ilo' to replace 'kepeken' (in a sense), then, while it still means "tool", it would also mean "usage, using". We just don't use 'ilo' much as a verb, since we have 'kepeken'. If the stative/active distinction is so important, then we should double up on all the preps and transitive verbs, since they all have this duality: 'moku' = "eating/food", 'tawa' = "direction/moving" and so on.
janMato
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Re: feeling hawaiian today! XD nimi "wiki"

Post by janMato »

No transitive usages. I only found this "li ilo" (and all of them are just predicates), I found 51 hits on "li kepeken e" They definitely aren't so close right now that they are being used interchange-ably.

re: doubling up on preps. I think it's a lesson learned for new small language writers, but again, I don't have any slam dunk evidence or support yet.

Code: Select all

a li sona lili. ona li pilin e ni: luka pakala mi [b]li ilo[/b] utala wawa!”  mi toki ala li pali e ilo mi. ona l
a." kiwen seli ni li kiwen wawa tawa ona. ma telo [b]li ilo[/b] kepeken tawa ona.  ona li toki e: "o sina kama! o
a." kiwen seli ni li kiwen wawa tawa ona. ma telo [b]li ilo[/b] kepeken tawa ona.  [Verse 4 And they said, "Come!
ki pona e toki Losupan li ken pilin pona. toki tu [b]li ilo[/b] pona. toki tu li pona tawa mi.  jan li toki e ni 
i soweli moli. ni li pona tawa uta mi Ikea o! ona [b]li ilo[/b] pi jan Awen ali li tawa mani ala ali li tawa mi  
a. sona pona: o lukin kepeken sona sina e ni: [b]ilo li[/b] ilo taso. wile sona pona: o sona, o pana e sijelo mi 
ma telo li ilo kepeken tawa ona.? What the heck? mud is tool with their motion?
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