Periods and semicolons

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
janMato
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Periods and semicolons

Post by janMato »

If one was in a hyper-purist mood, all sentences should end in a period, including questions because in toki pona the content of the question should indicate it is a question, not intonation or any other thing that can be heard outside of the words. Also, toki pona is reputed to not have any way to put two full sentences into one sentence, except via "la" constructions. But still, we have ":" which is some sort of written co-ordinating conjunction/independent clause introducer.

But if the usage of : is already established and text looks wrong without it. I think it should only be used when the anaphoric ni refers to something in an upcoming sentence. When ni refers to something previous, the sentence should end in a . If one wanted to be really innovative, then referring to past anaphora should use a , A comma would give readers one more clue about what the anaphora (the ona and ni) is referring to in a language with terribly weak anaphora words.

Anaphora referring to previous
kili li loje. (or ,) ni li pona tawa mi.
esun li jo e kili. (or ,) mi wile kama jo e ni. mi tawa esun.

Anaphora referring to upcoming
mi lukin e ni: kili loje li lon kasi suli.
kili li lon ni: ona li lon kasi suli.
mi wile e kili ni: kili li loje en suwi. also mi wile e kili ni: ona li loje en suwi.
ni li pona tawa mi: mi kama jo e kili mi lon esun.

And speaking of anaphora, it seems there's at least 5 choices to make when co-ordinating the elements of two sentences.
mi lukin e ni. kili li loje. - bare ni
mi lukin e kili ni. kili li loje. - repeated with ni
mi lukin e kili. kili li loje. - bare repetition
mi lukin e kili. ona li loje. - bare ona
mi lukin e kili. ona kili li loje. - modified pronoun, where modifier is repeated or name of the referent's category (mije, meli, kasi, kiwen, etc)

If writing for comprehensibility, repeated with ni and modified pronoun have the highest chance of being understood. Bare repetition can have a reading of something new, and bare ona and ni coordinates too promiscuously, especially if there are many words between ni/ona and the referrent.
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jan Ote
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by jan Ote »

Just like in any natural language I use, I prefer:
mi lukin e kili. ona li loje.
 I look at fruit. It is red. (usually)
or
mi lukin e kili. kili ni li loje.
 I look at fruit. This fruit is red. (mostly when context is not enough to avoid ambiguity of "ona")
janMato wrote:mi lukin e kili ni. kili li loje. - repeated with ni
 I look at this fruit. Fruit is red.
Strange for me, I expect "this" in the second sentence rather.
janMato wrote:mi lukin e ni. kili li loje. - bare ni
 I look at this. Fruit is red.
No obvious connection between "this" and "kili", unless it means something like:
 mi lukin e ni: kili li loje.
 I look at this: fruit is red.
but this is slightly different meaning.
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by janKipo »

Probably back references that are not to sentences (or the events they describe) should be done with 'ona', which is the only anaphoric word in tp. 'ni' is deictic, that is, it points to something present either in the environment or in the speech stream. As for coordination after a long interval of words, remember "repetition is also anaphora" with whatever modification is need to prevent the "new case" reading ('ni', which is basically a modifier, is useful for indicating that the referent is around already; its use for things yet to come is rather limited, namely with the colon for following sentences (cf. English "that") and maybe for restrictive relative clauses that cant be done with modifiers directly (like English "that" again).
That being said, the use of commas before the restrictive relative clause cases is not a bad idea, though the occurrences are few and far between, I think.
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:Probably back references that are not to sentences (or the events they describe) should be done with 'ona', which is the only anaphoric word in tp. 'ni' is deictic, that is, it points to something present either in the environment or in the speech stream.
I don't grok. If "ni" refers to something in the speech stream, how is that different that "ona", which also refers to something I was or will be talking about?
As for coordination after a long interval of words, remember "repetition is also anaphora" with whatever modification is need to prevent the "new case" reading ('ni', which is basically a modifier, is useful for indicating that the referent is around already;
Yeah, that was already on my list and used to be my preferred form of deisis/anaphora
That being said, the use of commas before the restrictive relative clause cases is not a bad idea, though the occurrences are few and far between, I think.
The big picture of where I'm heading with this is I'd like to copy edit the toki pona corpus. The sort of things that a copy editor would fix in English would be punctuation, spelling, and clear mistakes of grammar-- i.e all the little things. Which is appropriate editing. Fixing the big things would transform the text and lose the author's style and voice.
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by janKipo »

The difference is between pointing to and replacing. 'ni' points to something (a word or its referent), 'ona' replaces a repetition of a word with the same referent ("anaphora" means repetition). Not a very sharp difference in practice, to be sure. In practice, I try to use 'ni' (as a pronoun) only for sentences and events (described by sentences), since they are not simple items to be replaced, 'ona' then serves for words or NPs.
Your goal is admirable, good luck! (but get the rights.)
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jan Ote
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by jan Ote »

janMato wrote:I don't grok. If "ni" refers to something in the speech stream, how is that different that "ona", which also refers to something I was or will be talking about?
ona
 a personal pronoun ~= he, she, it, they (for replacing a previously used, known noun, thus avoiding repetition)

ni
 a demonstrative ~= this, that, these, those (for pointing at something)

mi wile e ni: sina pana e moku tawa mi. -- I want this: you give me food.
Here you cannot use "ona" instead of "ni", because there is no previous noun to replace

mi jo e tomo. ona li suli. -- I have a house. It is big.
"ona" is a pronoun replacing "tomo", used just like English "it".

mi jo e moku e telo suwi. telo ni li pona. -- I have food and sweet water. This water is good.
Here "ni" is used to express that "telo" in this sentence is the same "telo" I talked about in previous sentence. I haven't use "ona li pona", because this would be ambigous: "they are good" (not intended) or "it is good" (which one: food or drink?).
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by janMato »

jan Ote wrote:
janMato wrote:I don't grok. If "ni" refers to something in the speech stream, how is that different that "ona", which also refers to something I was or will be talking about?
ona
 a personal pronoun ~= he, she, it, they (for replacing a previously used, known noun, thus avoiding repetition)

ni
 a demonstrative ~= this, that, these, those (for pointing at something)
So while entirely correct, not really useful.

ona is such a lousy word-- it co-ordinates with *everything*, I would rather repeat. ona helps avoid co-ordination with referents. And pointing is similarly useless. Odds are low that I will ever have the opportunity to point at something and say "ni!" If I did, everyone in Arlington Virginia would understand that as a reference to the Monty Python comedy skit, the "Knights of Ni" Pointing in toki pona is hypothetical-- it's never happened (that two toki pona speakers were in the same room) and I believe it when I see it with my own eyes.
mi wile e ni: sina pana e moku tawa mi. -- I want this: you give me food.
Here you cannot use "ona" instead of "ni", because there is no previous noun to replace
Sure you can (refer to things not spoken about yet). I want it. You give me the apple. I agree with jan Kipo here that ni seems to co-ordinate better with the entire sentence than "ona"
mi jo e tomo. ona li suli. -- I have a house. It is big.
"ona" is a pronoun replacing "tomo", used just like English "it".
Not really, because it means I'm referring to something inanimate or ungendered and singular. In a 3 or 20 sentence example, "ona" could be referring to quite a few things. And other languages have even better pronouns for nailing down what sort of "it" it is.
mi jo e moku e telo suwi. telo ni li pona. -- I have food and sweet water. This water is good.
Here "ni" is used to express that "telo" in this sentence is the same "telo" I talked about in previous sentence. I haven't use "ona li pona", because this would be ambigous: "they are good" (not intended) or "it is good" (which one: food or drink?).
[/quote]

Or modified pronouns, along the line of "ona meli", "ona mute", "ona meji".

mi jo e moku e telo suwi. ona telo li pona.

And of course, if one can point, then one probably has enough visual context to see if the food or the drink is rotten and then it really doesn't matter what pattern one picks because the sentence is a signal asking for sympathy, not communicating the fact that one item on the dinner plate is rotten whilst the other isn't.
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by janKipo »

Two tp speakers have been in the dame room at the same time on at least three extended occasions, the LCCs (Kipo and Jakopo). Other occasions have probably occurred. We didn't talk much tp, though.
It seems to me that you have the strategies for anaphora in tp down pretty well, though I like 'telo ni' better than 'ona telo' and would hesitate to use 'ona' before a prior referent. But that is likely aesthetics. The point is always in tp to do as much as possible with as little as possible, so, while having only on anaphore and one deictor, we can manage to get the right thing somehow most of the time -- which is about all that more elaborate schemes (gender, number, spiritual class, etc.) can claim. It is easy to subvert any system (even Lojban with a dozen more or less interlocking devices, some requiring the memory of a herd of elephants to apply).
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by jan Ote »

janMato wrote:ona is such a lousy word-- it co-ordinates with *everything*, I would rather repeat.
Context rules, as usual. Every language I know has pronouns, to avoid repetition of noun. It seems to be an important part of language and I wouldn't hesitate to use it.
janMato wrote:Odds are low that I will ever have the opportunity to point at something and say "ni!"
You forgot Po... uhm, well... You use an English equivalent of "ni" almost every time you say more than one sentence.

While we often use "ni" this way:
ona li utala ala. ni li pona.
 He doesn't fight. That is good.
(NB: here we are not able to use finger while speaking, and point at "something", because there is no real object to point at! The fact he doesn't fight is good)
it can also be used as a demonstrative adjective:
meli en mije li tawa. meli ni li pona lukin.
 Man and woman were walking. That woman was beautiful.
Here "ni" is an adjective used to distinct THAT meli from all other meli.
In fact, "ni" is very, very useful. Let's take "today" -- in almost(?) all Indoeuropean languages it's built in the very same way we built it in toki pona:
tenpo suno = day
tenpo suno ni = THIS day = today

What is the most common, the most frequently used word in English? One doesn't have to read "The Gold-Bug" to know that this is "the". In my mother tongue there is no "the" and no "a/an", no definite/indefinite articles at all. When we want to explain English "the" to a beginner, we say "it's just a kind of 'this', even if used much more often than in our language":
 the apple = THIS apple
I don't know the etymology of English "the", but all definite articles in Romance languages (la, la, el, il) come from Latin demonstrative adjective "this" (ille, illa). The very basic meaning of a definite article is the same as the meaning of an demonstrative adjective:
meli ni li pona lukin. -- That woman was beautiful.
meli ni li pona lukin. -- The woman was beautiful.

Why "this/that" demonstrative is so important, even more than any pronoun ("ona")? In each and every case you can replace a personal pronoun "ona" with the noun it replaces, plus the "ni" if you want less ambiguity:
 ona = "tomo" or "tomo ni"
 ona = "meli ni"
 ona = "jan ni"
But not always you can do the same in the opposite way, replace "ni" with "ona" or any other word, or any expression. Deictic is just unreplaceable by other words.
mi jo e tomo. ona li suli. -- I have a house. It is big.
"ona" is a pronoun replacing "tomo", used just like English "it".
Not really, because it means I'm referring to something inanimate or ungendered and singular.
True, "tomo" is not "a house", but "house(s)". Even "tomo ni" or "ona tomo" or any other expressions for this are ambigous then. I wrote "just like English 'it'" to mean: to the extent we can compare/translate it here. Because I translated "tomo" into singular "house", then "ona" is singular "it", not plural "they". Still "ona" doesn't indicate whether the replaced noun is an animated one or not? No problem. Hungarian doesn't have grammatical gender or a grammatical distinction between animate and inanimate.
mi jo e moku e telo suwi. ona telo li pona.
Thanks, but "telo ni" is much better solution for me. We have deictic to use it, and it's a natural way of thinking for me ("telo - telo ni", water - this water).
janMato wrote:Pointing in toki pona is hypothetical-- it's never happened (that two toki pona speakers were in the same room)
You disappeared me and jan lili mi. We certainly have used "ni" many times. "ni li pona" is a natural expression, not to mention "mi wile ala e ni" and so on... Interestingly, "ona" is theoretically somewhat ambiguous, but it works well. For example: we were watching TV, commenting some scenes, a spider caught a fly, and one of us shouted: "ike a! ona li moku e ona!". No ambiguity within the context.
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Re: Periods and semicolons

Post by janKipo »

And context is everything in tp [insert screed here] Full marks.
As you suspect, "the" in English is etymologically related to the deictic prn/adj "this, that, they" and so on. (and "a(n)" to "one").
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