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Are there any words you've found yourself wanting? - Page 4 - Toki Pona Forums

Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janKipo » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:01 pm

Go read up on 'pu' by Mato. Relative clauses would be nice but increase the complexity of the grammar by at least an order of magnitude.

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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janMato » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:41 pm


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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janKipo » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:22 am

I am inclined to think the article is just wrong, since I can't see any use for any of these items: given the weak number system, it is unlikely we need a decimal point or any ratio marker and poetry lines pretty much take care of themselves (and would be ruined by a spoken or written mark). Nor do we use pounds, shillings and pence, the other major use of the virgule.

Notice that the comma sets of non-restrictive relative clauses and you want to use it for restrictive ones. Non-restrictive clauses present no problems since they are separate information and thus go naturally into separate sentences (problems of referential alignment aside).

I assume that what you want to add after 'pu' is a verb phrase, potentially a verb (with modifiers and complements as needed) + DO (when appropriate) + prepositional phrase (ditto). In short, another whole sentence less the subject (and 'li' which might yet turn up in conjoined predicates), which is supplied by the noun before 'pu'. Assuming 'li' does not occur, this makes few problems for a subject noun, since the 'li' puts and end to that slot. As a DO, there is the problem of whether the next DO is part of the relative clause or another parallel to its head. And a similar problem arises about whether the PP is in the relative clause or in the main clause. This latter arises also with 'pu' clauses in the noun part of PPs. For noun complements, both problems arise again.

That being said, I do think that we need to deal with the situations that restrictive relative clauses are designed to meet, namely narrowing the range of general words for a particular context, where the narrowing cannot be handled easily by adjective style modifiers, The obvious solution, aside from recreating restrictive relative clauses, is to do the restriction first and then take that up: 'waso li tawa noku taso. waso ni li ...'. Perhaps 'waso' needs to be explicitly modified to make clear that on some birds are meant.

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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby oligo » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:51 am

Is there any way to make verbs that are compound words? If not, how are new verbs made in Toki Pona?

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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janMato » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:16 pm


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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janKipo » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:21 pm

'tawa' is mot a modal, but'open and 'pini'' are, 'lukin'' and 'alasa' are iffy.
Pp as vp are common, only the transitive forms are rare. 'lon' and 'tan' are also common, and 'sama'
'kama sona' is modal+verb., not a noun complement

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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janMato » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:03 pm


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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janKipo » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:26 pm

Nothing special here; we need a word to cover the slot and VP is traditional. It doesn't matter much in tp, since any content word can go there (even with 'e') and so often have verby behavior at that point. I suppose we could call the lot Predicate, if the verb part is objectionable, but that seems odd in the transitive cases (witness Lojban's constant search for the right word). Call them Slot 2, then.

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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janMato » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:58 pm


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Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?

Postby janKipo » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:29 pm

Ouch! As the oldest living Loglan/Lojbanist (I think), that hurts -- although I do keep trying (for 35 years now) to get them back to standard terminology. But 55 years of (mis)usage is hard to overcome. On the other hand, 'li' structure', 'la' structure and so on are perhaps better for tp than the standard stuff - but we need something for the subject and final PPs.
PPs with 'e' aren't idiomatic, merely awkward (usually); they are prefectly regular. 'pilin ike' is idiomatic (until I get the spanner into the works). One problem is the variety of possible readings of the transitive derivatives. The man who declared that the whale was really a mammal animaled a fish as much as the person who threw a cow to the piranhas or the magician who turned a catfish into a cat. The occasion for using these expressions just hasn't arisen yet -- but tp is ready.


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