Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
janKipo
Posts: 2885
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Wed May 02, 2018 7:29 pm

Good to know, though fairly obvious. The comma chat is just a sad mistake all around.

User avatar
jan_Lope
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:30 pm
Location: mi lon ma tomo Pelin.
Contact:

Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Thu May 03, 2018 1:45 am

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
jan_Lope wrote:On which page in pu is it written that you can start la-phrases (conditional-phrases) with a preposition?

Page 52.


Sorry, but there is no indication in pu that a preposition can be at the beginning of a la-phrase. Please do better research!

"tan" is a noun here:
tan seme la soweli wawa pimeja li moku e ona?
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

janKipo
Posts: 2885
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Thu May 03, 2018 7:29 am

et voila!

User avatar
jan_Lope
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:30 pm
Location: mi lon ma tomo Pelin.
Contact:

la vs lon

Postby jan_Lope » Thu May 03, 2018 9:00 am

toki!

I've updated my lessons and went into more detail about la vs lon. Here is an excerpt. For more details please see:
https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https:// ... 0000000000

Conditional Phrases versus Prepositional Objects after the preposition lon

The (compound) noun of the prepositional object after the prepostion lon can in some cases be placed before la with nearly the same meaning. This only applies to location and time specifications and if the sentence contains only one predicate phrase with only one prepositional object.

mi moku e telo, lon tenpo ni. :: I drink now.
tenpo ni la mi moku e telo. :: If it's now, I'll drink. / I drink now.


The following sentence has two predicate phrases, each with a prepositional object with the preposition lon. None of the prepositional objects can be moved to before the separator la without changing the statement. The respective predicate phrase would be torn.

ona li pali, lon tomo pali li moku, lon tomo moku. :: He works in the office and eats in the canteen.

If the predicate is identical for all predicate phrases, prepositional objects with lon can be moved before la.

ona li moku, lon tenpo ni li moku, lon tenpo kama. :: He eats now and he eats later.
tenpo ni la tenpo kama la ona li moku. :: Now and later he eats.
tenpo ni en tenpo kama la ona li moku. :: Now and later he eats.

The other way around it is not possible to move all possible la phrases after the preposition lon. For example, a conditional phrase before la can consist of a complete sentence with a subject and predicate(s). However, you cannot use a complete sentence as a prepositional object. In the following examples, using conditional phrases as prepositional objects with the preposition lon would be confusing.

lon ona la ni li ' pona, tawa mi. :: If it exists, it's good for me.
sama ona la sina ken ante e ni. :: If it's the same, you can swap it.
ken la mi tawa. :: Maybe I'll go.

Conditional Phrases versus indirect Objects after the Intransitive Verb lon

The (compound) noun of the indirect object after the intransitive verb lon can in some cases be placed before la with nearly the same meaning.

mi lon tenpo ni. :: I exist now.
tenpo ni la mi lon. :: Now I exist.

The following sentence has two predicate phrases, each with the intransitive verb lon. Since the predicate (lon) is the same for both predicate phrases, the indirect objects can be moved before la.

ona li lon tenpo ni li lon tomo ni. :: He's here during this time and in this house.
tenpo ni la ona li lon tomo ni. :: At this time he's in the house .
tenpo ni la tomo ni la ona li lon. :: At this time and in this house he is.

The other way around it is not possible to move all possible la phrases after the intransitive verb lon. For example, a conditional phrase before la can consist of a complete sentence with a subject and predicate(s). However, you cannot use a complete sentence as an indirect object.

Conditional Phrases versus Predicate Noun lon or Predicate Adjective lon

After the separator li a predicate noun lon or a predicate adjective lon can stand also. Direct following words cannot be moved before lon because they do not form an object.

ona li ' lon ala. :: It has no existence.
ona li ' lon pi nasin sewi. :: It's a sacred existence.
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

User avatar
janTepanNetaPelin
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:14 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Thu May 03, 2018 1:32 pm

jan_Lope wrote:
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
jan_Lope wrote:On which page in pu is it written that you can start la-phrases (conditional-phrases) with a preposition?

Page 52.


Sorry, but there is no indication in pu that a preposition can be at the beginning of a la-phrase. Please do better research!

"tan" is a noun here:
tan seme la soweli wawa pimeja li moku e ona?


Lope is quoting me out of context here in order to make his point, which sure proves what a good researcher he is. Besides, he totally ignored that Sonja has already explained the issue and that therefore there is no need to keep misreading la-phrases like he does, plus misinforming his audience about what is and is not official Toki Pona.
mi jan Tepan. mi jan pi toki Epelanto. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa.
mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona: https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

User avatar
jan_Lope
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:30 pm
Location: mi lon ma tomo Pelin.
Contact:

Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Thu May 03, 2018 2:40 pm

toki!

We have established the following: In pu it is not written on page 52 or anywhere else that a la-phrase can start with a preposition.

Let's look at the example of jan Tepan.

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:"mi pali tan ni."
-> "tan ni la mi pali."


In his opinion, "tan" is a preposition here. We can replace "tan" with "lon", since in his opinion both are a preposition here.

"mi pali lon ni."
-> "lon ni la mi pali."

But according to pu it must be as follows:

"mi pali lon ni."
-> "ni la mi pali."

So, according to jan Tepan's logic is "lon ni la mi pali." the same as "ni la mi pali."

We remember the following quote.

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:Mind that "x la ..." is no different from "... lon x",


Let us proceed according to this logic.
"lon ni la mi pali."
--> "mi pali lon lon ni."

Next step in this logic:
"mi pali lon lon ni."
--> "lon lon ni la mi pali."

And the next step:
"lon lon ni la mi pali."
--> "mi pali lon lon lon ni."

...

That's funny! And every "lon" is a preposition here!
Last edited by jan_Lope on Fri May 04, 2018 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

User avatar
jan_Lope
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:30 pm
Location: mi lon ma tomo Pelin.
Contact:

Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Fri May 04, 2018 2:03 am

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:Besides, he totally ignored that Sonja has already explained the issue and that therefore there is no need to keep misreading la-phrases like he does, plus misinforming his audience about what is and is not official Toki Pona.


toki!

My lessons are based on the lessons of jan Pije and the book of Sonja (first English 2014). In both sources there is nothing about prepositions at the beginning of a la-phrase.

Has Sonja published a new edition of her book?
Or has she published publicly available corrections to this book?
Or were these changes only discussed in a closed discussion group?

When am I supposed to have misinformed someone about an official and an unofficial Toki Pona?
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.


Return to “jan nasa li wile ante e toki pona”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest