lipu pi nasin To

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janPasi
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lipu pi nasin To

Post by janPasi »

How's this for the beginning of the first chapter of tao te ching:

jan li ken toki e nasin To. taso ona li ken ala toki e ijo pi pini ala.
jan li ken pana e nimi tawa ijo mute. taso ona li ken ala pana e nimi tawa ijo pi tenpo ale.
ijo ni li jo ala e nimi tan ni: ona li mama tawa ma li mama tawa sewi.
ijo ni li mama tawa ale.

o alasa e insa pi nasin To. jan li ken ala lukin.
o alasa e selo pi nasin To. jan li ken lukin.

insa en selo li kama tan sama. taso nimi ona li sama ala.
jan li ken toki e ni: tu ni li "ijo pi sona ala"
ijo pi sona ala li lon monsi ijo pi sona ala.
ni li tawa li tawa.

http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html

I used this: http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Dut ... r_TTK.html

I bet there are a bunch of errors and such (I'm only just beginning toki pona), so please feel free to correct me :) Is anyone aware of an existing tao te ching translation in tp?

--edit--

I changed some things and marked the changes with red. Basically "ijo Tao" was replaced by "nasin pona" and "ala" was moved after the first verb.

--edit--

"nasin pona" replaced with "nasin To" and the last three lines revised.
Last edited by janPasi on Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 14 times in total.
janKipo
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Re: lipu pi pona tawa (anu nasin pona?)

Post by janKipo »

The rule for epigones: after learning the first things about a conlang, explain how to improve it and translate the DDJ. There are at least half a dozen other shots back in the archives.
I don't think that the way to say "talk about " is 'toki e' but that is a matter of dispute and there is no agreement on an alternative.
Your version is an interpretive one and so folks may argue about the interpretation involved, but it seems inside the standard bounds.
probably 'ijo Tawo' or some such, and even the 'ijo' is iffy. 'nasin' also works.
"ken ala toki' etc. is better than 'ken toki ala' etc, though it is hard to say why.
I don't follow the last three lines, but I have probably forgotten what happens there.
The problems recur often here but are minor and basically this is a good job. Thanks.
janPasi
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Re: lipu pi pona tawa (anu nasin pona?)

Post by janPasi »

janKipo wrote:The rule for epigones: after learning the first things about a conlang, explain how to improve it and translate the DDJ. There are at least half a dozen other shots back in the archives.
Well, I really just thought it would be fun to try, and would certainly teach a thing or two about tp (and perhaps about DDJ too). Afterall, Sonja did say that the language is inspired by taoism. To me it was just interesting to see if one could grasp some of the concepts of DDJ in tp, since there is no official translation AFAIK. I didn't think it would come out as being arrogant, but maybe i was wrong? :oops: That certainly wasn't my intention anyway. I rather thought it would just show enthusiasm or something like that. I'm a sucker for languages, but tp is the first conlang for me.
janKipo wrote:I don't think that the way to say "talk about " is 'toki e' but that is a matter of dispute and there is no agreement on an alternative.
What suggestions are there for saying "talk about" instead of "toki e"? "toki lon"?
janKipo wrote:"ken ala toki' etc. is better than 'ken toki ala' etc, though it is hard to say why.
Is it always better to place "ala" after the first verb in cases like this?
janKipo wrote:I don't follow the last three lines, but I have probably forgotten what happens there.
I'm not happy with the last two either, they are too vague. The third last is supposed to say something like:

"insa en selo li sama. taso nimi ona li sama ala." -> "The core and the outside are the same, but their name is not the same"

The dutch text says that they come from the same source, but are called differently. In other translations it's expressed a bit differently (I don't understand chinese, unfortunately). This way seemed pretty elegant to me in tp, although I guess you could say "insa en selo li kama tan sama. taso nimi ona li sama ala."?

And the last two:

"tu ni li ijo pi sona ala." -> "These two are unknown." (maybe "tu" could be dropped.)
"sona ala en sona ala. ni li tawa li tawa." -> "Unknown after unknown, this goes on and on." (maybe this could just go "ijo pi sona ala li lon monsi ante. ni li tawa.").
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jan Ote
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Re: lipu pi pona tawa (anu nasin pona?)

Post by jan Ote »

janPasi wrote:
janKipo wrote:"ken ala toki' etc. is better than 'ken toki ala' etc, though it is hard to say why.
Is it always better to place "ala" after the first verb in cases like this?
It depends what you want to say:
soweli li ken ala toki = Animals can-not to talk = Animals cannot talk
jan sona li ken toki ala = Wise man can to talk-not = Wise man can keep silent

kiwen li ken ala moku = Stones cannot eat, they are not able to eat
mi ken moku ala = I can fast, I can abstain from food
janKipo
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Re: lipu pi nasin pona

Post by janKipo »

Sorry; I wasn't criticizing, just assuring you that doing DDJ is the normal thing, especially for tp (though it turns up -- along with Gen1:1ff and Gen 11 -- in a lot of conlang lists). Mine is the pile somewhere. The problem is that DDJ, like others of its ilk, is very language-specific: you can't do the puns in other languages. tp is actually closer than many, since words do shift their POS easily. English, too: The road that is rode, .... (dao ke dao, fei chang dao).
Yes, 'toki lon' is a possibility. Actually, I am coming to like 'toki e' better when I consider the alternatives, also 'toki pi'.
Not always, this is the modal case and the "cannot say" is better than "can not-say". i.e., "can be silent", or some such (although here this is not totally bad).
I like your second version a bit better, since Laozi talks a lot about the source.
Passives are a bitch in tp; it doesn't have any, so you have to go active and that introduces an irrelevant agent: 'jan ala li sona e tu ni. Not horrible, but it just suggest that someone could know them with a little effort.
Yours says some like "ignorance and ignorance, this goes and goes" Repetition might be good for indefinitely repeated events, so that is not bad, but the passives get us again. And here I don't have a lot to offer (not that I gave a lot before).
janKipo
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Re: lipu pi nasin pona

Post by janKipo »

Having just been reminded of how the guidelines go, I will retract 'Tawo': 'wo' is not a tp syllable and one is to shoot for the same number of sylllables. So, with the Japanese, I suggest 'To'. 'nasin', which means theory or philosophy and such, makes a good noun to hang it all on, maybe.
janPasi
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Re: lipu pi nasin To

Post by janPasi »

Ok, thanks guys :) This will do for now. I can always improve it later. Here's #2:

pona lukin li lon la ike lukin li lon kin.
pona li lon la ike li lon kin.
lon en lon ala li pana e lon tawa sama.
sama la lili en suli li lon tan sama.
sama la sewi en anpa li kama tan sama.
sama la monsi li lon monsi sinpin.

tan ni la jan sona li pali kepeken taso nasin pona.
ona li pana e sona kepeken ala toki.

ijo mute li kama. ona li tawa ala e ni (?).
ona li pana e lon tawa ni. taso jo ala e ni.
ona li pali kepeken ala wawa ona.
ona li wile ala e pona tan pali ona.
tan ni la ijo mute li awen lon ona.

--edit--

Added "la" after "tan ni" and changed "ona" to "sama". Removed "e" from sentences with "kepeken".
Last edited by janPasi on Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:23 pm, edited 11 times in total.
janKipo
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Re: lipu pi nasin To

Post by janKipo »

janPasi wrote:
I've skipped over the importance of knowing these things, not just their existence (this is all about fixed categories of language). There is also the problem of simultaneity and of coming-to-be, both of which play no small part in Daoism
pona lukin li lon la ike lukin li lon kin.
pona li lon la ike li lon kin.
Maybe 'ken' and 'ken ala' rather than 'pona' and 'ike'
lon en lon ala li pana e lon tawa ona.
'sama' for "one another', not 'ona'. Not sure whether 'lon' is quite right here, for either of the lines here collapsed; 'ike' and 'pona' for the second, surely.I don't know what to do with "music" and "noise" and "harmonize" either.
sama la lili en suli li lon tan ona.
sama la sewi en anpa li kama tan ona.
sama la monsi li lon monsi sinpin.

tan ni LA jan sona li pali kepeken taso e nasin pona.
No 'e' with 'kepeken' as preposition, here and next. 'taso' belongs with 'nasin pona', not 'kepeken'
ona li pana e sona kepeken ala e toki.

ijo mute li kama. ona li tawa ala e ni (?)[/quote]
jan sona li suli e ijo taso on li open ala e ijo ?
ona li pana e lon tawa ni. taso jo ala e ni.
ona li pali kepeken ala [e] wawa ona.
ona li wile ala e pona tan pali ona.
tan ni LA ijo mute li awen lon ona.
I'd leave off the 'lon ona' (and maybe use 'weka ala' rather than 'awen. Aesthetics)
Nice.
janPasi
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Re: lipu pi nasin To

Post by janPasi »

janKipo wrote:Maybe 'ken' and 'ken ala' rather than 'pona' and 'ike'
"ken li lon la ken ala li lon kin"?
The translations I've seen talk about good and evil. Why would "ken" be a preferable choice in your opinion?
janKipo wrote:I don't know what to do with "music" and "noise" and "harmonize" either.
Oh yeah, I kinda forgot those. Have to think about it.
janKipo wrote:jan sona li suli e ijo taso ona li open ala e ijo ?
"Wise man makes things grow but he doesn't [do what? open?] things."
It seems to need a ".", perhaps before "taso"? Do you think it would be better to repeat the noun instead of using "e ni" at the end of sentence?
janKipo wrote:tan ni LA jan sona li pali kepeken taso e nasin pona.
...
tan ni LA ijo mute li awen lon ona.
So "la" always goes after "tan ni" in cases like this ("because of this"), got it, thx!
janKipo wrote:No 'e' with 'kepeken' as preposition, here and next. 'taso' belongs with 'nasin pona', not 'kepeken'
No "e" with kepeken? You mean it should be: "tan ni la jan sona li pali kepeken taso nasin pona."? Ok, but sounds a bit strange to me?
janKipo wrote:I'd leave off the 'lon ona' (and maybe use 'weka ala' rather than 'awen. Aesthetics)
I like "awen lon ona" over "weka ala". To me it just sounds nicer for some reason, but I can't quite put my finger on the reason why (maybe it's just because I love the word "awen" ;)).

Thanks again!
janKipo
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Re: lipu pi nasin To

Post by janKipo »

My trats seem to favor skill or ability, vs sloppiness or disability, but I gather the Chinese is especially vague along here.
Don't blame you -- tp just isn't rich enough to do this easily.
Oops. Yes, a period (tp is not big on commas) before 'taso' open or start things
At the beginning (with the 'ni' referring back to the previous sentence).
'kepeken' is one of the few V and N that can be used as prepositions, as here. When it is a preposition, it takes an NP complement, not a DO, so no 'e',
'weka' always seems to me to be "throw away," a negative sounding notion. Maybe to you too. (One of its meanings as a noun seems to be "garbage").
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