Going without the words "mi wile"

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janMato
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Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by janMato »

Somewhat related to the question about what toki pona words can easily be replaced with others...
This blog poses the question, "How long can you go without saying I want"

tenpo ale la jan wile e ijo la jan ni li jan pi mani lili.

Any how a very Buddhist sentiment. Okay, enough philosophy, time for word games. How does one express desires without "mi wile"?
Last edited by janMato on Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
janKipo
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by janKipo »

The stock breakdown (for logicians into this sort of thing) for 'want x' is something like "have a felt lack which will be filled just in case have x in the appropriate way." So
'mi wile e ni' becomes something like 'mi pilin ike' mi jo e ni la pilin ni li weka. pilin ni li weka la mi jo e ni' But not quite, since the feeling going away is not the same as a lack being filled, but I have no idea how to do that in tp.

btw 'jan li wile ijo' And what is Buddhist about this? (Did that for 40 odd years. too).
jan musi pi len noka
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by jan musi pi len noka »

tempo ale la jan wile e ijo la jan ni li jan pi mani lili.
tempo ale la = always
jan wile e ijo = man wants something
jan pi mani lili = poor man

mi pilin e ni. jan Puta li pilin sama.

jan li ken toki sama ni tawa kulupu nimi "mi wile"

mi wile e moku =>

tempo ni la insa mi li pilin pona lili. tempo la insa mi li jo e moku la insa mi li pilin pona mute.
anu
moku pi tempo kama li kama e ni. insa mi li pilin pona mute.
janKipo
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by janKipo »

OK, but still how is this particularly Buddhist? It might as well be Tevya as Siddhartha, since folk wisdom regularly points out that, if a person, even a rich one, wants something he cannot get, he is no better off than a poor man, indeed is a poor man in just that respect. A better Buddhist saying might be 'jan li wile e ijo la jan li moli', though that also is not quite right, since what wanting something does is condemn you to live rather than escape from life. 'lon li pilin jaki. wile li kama e pilin jaki. jan li ken pini pilin jaki tan ni: jan li ken pini wile.' And so on.

The 'mi wile moku' case is a little tricky because it means both "I want food (or to eat)" and "I am hungry'" which need not be the same thing at all (e.g. anorexia and gluttony). But for the normal coincidence of the two, what you say is right, except that I would add that the particular ill-feeling can be ended only by food.
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jan Josan
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by jan Josan »

sina kama poka jan Puta lon nasin la, o moli e ona.
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by janKipo »

o kepeken e sitelen pi jan Puta tawa open seli.

This thread has become somewhat unraveled but to continue on the new line, I don't much like using Zen jokes when talking about Buddhism. Zen is as much (and more) Daoist as Buddhist, although there are branches on Buddhism to which Daoism attached fairly easily and flourished (though Dhyana wouldn't have been my first guess). It is no accident that Zen masters are called Laozi.
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jan Josan
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by jan Josan »

Well, I've seen a lot of different interpretations of Rinzai's saying, but I don't believe I've ever heard someone refer to it as a *joke* before. The fuller English version (which I'm sure you know but for other readers) says:

Followers of the Way, if you wish to see this Dharma clearly, do not let yourselves be deceived.
Whether you turn to the outside or to the inside, whatever you encounter, kill it.
If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha; if you meet the patriarchs, kill the patriarchs; if you meet Arhats, kill Arhats; if you meet your parents, kill your parents; if you meet your relatives, kill your relatives; then for the first time you will see dearly.
And if you do not depend on things, there is deliverance, there is freedom!

Obviously the killing is metaphorical, I don't think it carries any disrespect.

are you saying Zen masters are called 老字, or 老师?
janKipo
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by janKipo »

The former, though the latter makes sense, too. I gather from this comment that there is some discussion about which is the source for "roshi." Since I don't know either Chinese nor Japanese, I pass on that (what is the kanji?). I tell a tale I heard told -- and one that works phonologically (as does lao shi, I think) .
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by jan musi pi len noka »

jan pi nasin Puta li wile e pilin ni. wawa sama la jan li wile e ale e ante.

ni li sitelen tawa kama sona. jan li jo anu jo ala e mani. jan ni li pilin e ni. "ni li pona." jan ni li jo e mani. jan ni li pilin e ni. "ni li pona". jan ni li jo ala e mani. jan ni li pilin e ni. "ni li pona" jan ni li pilin e pilin pi sama ale. pilin ni li mani tawa jan pi nasin Puta. tempo pi jo mani anu tempo pi jo mani ala la jan ni li pilin e pilin sama.

ni li sama ni. jan pi ma Monkowia li pilin e ni. soweli pi telo walo li mani. jan pi tomo mute li pilin e ni. lipu kule li mani. jan pi nasin Puta li pilin e ni. pilin pi sama ale li mani.

jan pi nasin Puta li wile tawa ma Nipana li wile e pali pi jan Awahanta. jan pilin e pilin sama tan ni ijo tu la jan ni li kama taso tawa ma Nipana li kama jan Awahanta.

pilin pi wawa ala. jan pi nasin Puta li alisa e pilin pi wawa ala.
pilin pi sama suli. jan pi nasin Puta li pilin e pilin pi sama suli tawa ijo ale.
pilin pi wan suli. jan pi nasin Puta li kama jo e pilin pi wan suli tawa ni tawa ni ante.
pilin sama pi/tawa (ijo) pona en ike. pilin sama pi pona en ike li pona tawa jan pi nasin Puta. jan pi nasin Puta li kama sona pi pilin sama tawa ijo pona en ike.

jan pi nasin Puta li toki e ni. mi mute li jo e ijo mani tu wan. nanpa wan li jan Puta. nanpa tu li nimi nasin pi jan Puta. nanpa tu wan li kulupu pi nasin pi jan Puta en jo ala pi meli sama. ni tu wan li mani tawa jan pi nasin Puta.
Last edited by jan musi pi len noka on Mon May 17, 2010 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
janKipo
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Re: Going without the words "mi wile"

Post by janKipo »

jan musi pi len noka wrote:jan pi nasin Puta li wile e pilin ni. jan li wile e ale e ante kepeken wawa sama.

ni li sitelen pi kama sona. jan li jo e mani. jan ni li pilin e ni. "ni li pona". jan li jo ala e mani. jan ni li pilin e ni. "ni li pona" jan ni li pilin e pilin pi sama ale. pilin ni li mani tawa jan pi nasin Puta.

ni li sama ni. jan pi ma Monkowia li pilin e ni. soweli pi telo walo li mani. jan pi tomo mute li pilin e ni. lipu kule li mani. jan pi nasin Puta li pilin e ni. pilin pi sama ale li mani.
I'm not sure I follow. Here is what I got [with comments]
A Buddhist wants/needs this thought: People ant everything and other/different things using their own power [not clear what power one uses to want something maybe 'wile kama jo'?]
This is the picture of a wise future/becoming wise. A person has money. This person thinks/feels that that is good [don't need quotes, they belong to another construction: 'e pilin "ni li pona"']
A person doesn't have money. This person thinks that this is good. [this and its mate above might work better as single conditional sentences than as two separate simple sentences]
These men think the entirely same thought. This thought is money for a Buddhist. [It took a while to piece the first part out; a 'tu' would have helped -- assuming I got it approximately right. The second I don't understand at all, but from a historical-philosophical point of view.]
This is the same as that. A Mongolian thinks that a milk animal is money [probably a goat or a Bactrian, not the usual cow -- and "money" now in the "flock" sense, perhaps. There should be a colon rather than a period after 'ni'.]
A city dweller thinks that colored paper is money [colon again].
A Buddhist thinks that the entirely similar thought is money. [colon again]

I am not sure that the Buddhists have any particular view on the nature of money, although I have to admit that they likely find modern financial practices particularly instructive, since so much "wealth" is evanescent (indeed, nowadays, actually vanished), which is always their point. In any case, I doubt that they think of it as a thought -- more so than everything else, of course (and that only for some Buddhists). If the point is that people feel pretty much the same ('sama ali' seems excessive) about whatever is the measure of wealth in their society, this is hardly unique to Buddhism (if it belongs there at all). Their point is always to stop wanting it.
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