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Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa" - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Mind and thought: Wisdom, mental health, cognition, self-talk, consciousness, philosophy, psychology, optimizing your thinking, productivity hacks
Menso kaj penso: Saĝaĵoj, psiĥa sano, kogno, memparolado, psiĥa stato, filozofio, psikologio, rearanĝi sian pensadon, plibonigi sian produktokapablon
janMato
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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby janMato » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:17 pm


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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby janKipo » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:24 pm

We seem to be comparing apples and schist. The fact that a language has a means of saying that more than one thing is involved does not mean it has plurals, nor does the fact that it can place an event in time mean it has tenses. Plurals (number) and tense are grammatical categories; telling how many or when are semantic/pragmatic functions, very different things. to be sure, the grammatical categories are sometimes used for the semantic functions in some languages. But there are other grammatical devices which are used for these purposes in other languages (and, indeed, in those that have number or tense). To have number or tense requires that there are regular ways to do these things and that their use is obligatory (with certain exceptions, defined for each language). tp has nothing like this for either category -- nor for other similar categories that come to mind: there are no obligatory connections with any content word (including exclusions).
To, be sure, each word has a net of connections of various sorts with other words and this net is different for each word. But that does not mean that each word is a different word class in a grammatical sense; it just means each word has a different meaning. Given the meaning of a word, it will go naturally with some things and not with others, 'sona' doesn't fit with 'kiwen' well, because stones tend not to be sentient, let alone wise (but, of course, we can tell a story about a wise old mountain , ...).
So, the most you can say is that 'ilo li olin e ilo ante' looks odd at first glance, but not that is is grammatically forbidden -- or even semantically -- but that it needs a story. And then we get on to the fuzzy story-classes, which are less help than just saying that certain things are assumed to have certain properties until otherwise revealed.

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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby janMato » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:22 pm


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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby janKipo » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:18 pm

Yes, it is all fuzzy logic from the get-go in the real world: grammatical classes are fuzzy (with very steep membership functions, to be sure), semantic webs are fuzzy, even physical characteristics (and indeed physical bodies) are fuzzy. But, happily, fuzzy things can be dealt with relatively unfuzzily at various practical levels. So, here, we can make specifications for 'olin', say, which work fine and also tell what sort of story is required to dodge the bullet. That doesn't make 'olin' a class, just a separate word, as it already was (tp is blessedly short of synonyms).
This has been a useful discussion, precisely because it brings these questions up and they need to be discussed at some point (maybe later, when there is a bit more culture to mess with). there are more pressing issues at the moment -- of the how to say correctly sort, for example.
By the way, don't confuse the value of the membership function with the the truth value of the claim that something is in the class. That is only one possible tv assignment, and often not the most useful one. For most practical cases, something about an acceptance function also plays a role, where acceptance presumably varies with membership but not necessarily directly. Of course, the strongest acceptance functions are those that give 0 up to a certain membership value and 1 thereafter, i.e., the preciding functions.

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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby jan Ote » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:40 am


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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby janMato » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:09 am


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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby jan Ote » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:56 pm


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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby janMato » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:20 pm


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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby jan Ote » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:18 pm


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Re: Noun classes, olin and "pona tawa"

Postby janMato » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:28 pm



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