mi namako

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janKipo
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Re: mi namako

Postby janKipo » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:36 am

Well, never try to be absolute about a tp word. 'kin la' is established as "moreover" or something like that. As for 'namako,' it clearly means something like "spice" -- see jan Sonja's notes -- and so the transitive use as "excites, interests" does not seem at all unlikely (not yet established, perhaps, but this is a step toward that establishment).

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Re: mi namako

Postby jan-ante » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:24 pm

janKipo wrote: 'kin la' is established as "moreover" or something like that.

what do you mean under "established"? is it in a vocabulary? "moreover" does not really fit this context.

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Re: mi namako

Postby janKipo » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:45 pm

"Established" means "used several times by people who use tp well generally" Also used for "likewise" and similarly." I agree that meaningfully it is not quite right, but grammatically it is OK. I'm not sure just what was intended, but I am inclined to think that 'taso' might be more to the point.

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jan Josan
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Re: mi namako

Postby jan Josan » Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:18 am

mi pana e linja tu wan kepeken toki pona. ona li sona sama. mi wile sona e ni: sina pilin e seme: nampa seme li namako pona mute?
1. kili li kasi lili.
2. kasi li mama kili.
21. mama kili li kasi.

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Re: mi namako

Postby jan-ante » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:59 am

janKipo wrote:"Established" means "used several times by people who use tp well generally" Also used for "likewise" and similarly." I agree that meaningfully it is not quite right, but grammatically it is OK.

no, not grammatically. it is clear violation of tp grammatics by "several times by people who use tp well generally"

I'm not sure just what was intended, but I am inclined to think that 'taso' might be more to the point.

i suppose that the intended meaning was "really" or "indeed". but he could put the kin right after the predicate namako:
ni li namako kin e/tawa mi

jan-ante
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Re: mi namako

Postby jan-ante » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:05 am

jan Josan wrote: mi wile sona e ni: sina pilin e seme: nampa seme li namako pona mute?
1. kili li kasi lili.
2. kasi li mama kili.
21. mama kili li kasi.

mi pilin e ni: np2 li pona mute. sina wile sona e ni tan seme?

janKipo
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Re: mi namako

Postby janKipo » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:44 am

"sina wile sona e ni tan seme?"
Or even tawa seme (for what purpose as well as from what reason).

" janKipo wrote:"Established" means "used several times by people who use tp well generally" Also used for "likewise" and similarly." I agree that meaningfully it is not quite right, but grammatically it is OK."
no, not grammatically. it is clear violation of tp grammatics by "several times by people who use tp well generally""

I'm not clear just what grammar rule is being violated here. At most, it would seem to be that 'kin' belongs to a grammatical category that could not occur in the 'la' slot. But, aside from the usual foursome: e, li, la, and o, there doesn't seem to be such a category. Admittedly, 'kin' seem more restricted than most, so far, but nothing is carved in stone here, and usage still has some force in determining rules.

"1. kili li kasi lili.
2. kasi li mama kili.
21. mama kili li kasi."
I'm not sure they do all mean the same; 'lili' only secondarily (at best) means "baby, offspring". 2 and 21 do seem to mean the same, though presumably with some paralinguistic differences (I don't know what). Note that interchanging 'kili' and 'kasi' works just as well.

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jan Josan
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Re: mi namako

Postby jan Josan » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:51 am

janKipo wrote:"sina wile sona e ni tan seme?"
Note that interchanging 'kili' and 'kasi' works just as well.

Do we have a chicken and egg here?

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Re: mi namako

Postby jan-ante » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:21 pm

janKipo wrote:"sina wile sona e ni tan seme?"
Or even tawa seme (for what purpose as well as from what reason).

yes

Admittedly, 'kin' seem more restricted than most, so far, but nothing is carved in stone here, and usage still has some force in determining rules.

well, if they not crave in stone, why they dont write on a web, how exactly they suggest to expand the meaning of kin to make the constrauction kin la legal? it should be the noun with meaning ***...???

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Re: mi namako

Postby janKipo » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:34 pm

"Do we have a chicken and egg here?" Damn betcha!

""Admittedly, 'kin' seem more restricted than most, so far, but nothing is carved in stone here, and usage still has some force in determining rules."
well, if they not carve in stone, why they don't write on a web, how exactly they suggest to expand the meaning of kin to make the construction kin la legal? it should be the noun with meaning ***...???"

The easy answer is that they don't yet quite know how it works; that is, what the best noun ('kin' hasn't been used as a noun yet, I think) to base it on. Or verb ('ken la' is clearly OK). They have the fact of the usage, with an understood meaning, but not some of the other things that usually surround such. These will develop (or not -- some usages just stick out there) eventually and then get written up. Or someone close to the source will promulgate a solution. Right now, 'kin' seems to confront 'taso' (which doesn't need 'la' for some reason) as reinforcement vs. undercutting 'x kin' is another case or a stressed case, 'x taso' is a unique case or a contrary one, an exception in either sense.


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