mama en jan lili en soweli

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janTali
Posts: 27
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Location: ma Italija

mama en jan lili en soweli

Post by janTali »

While I still several comments to write on other threads, I want to post another story. Here it is.

mama en jan lili en soweli

tenpo wan la
mama en jan lili
li tawa esun.
mama li tawa noka.
jan lili li lon soweli
pi nena kute suli
li tawa kepeken ona.
jan ante li lukin e ni
li toki e ni:
“jan lili nasa a!
jan lili li wawa mute
li kepeken e soweli.
taso mama ona
li suli mute
li wawa lili.
ona li tawa noka la
li pana e telo sijelo!”
jan tu li kute e ni
li ante e lon.
jan lili li anpa lon ma.
mama li sewi lon soweli.
ona tu li open tawa sin
lon ni.
jan sin li lukin e ni
li toki e ni:
“mama nasa a!
mama li suli li wawa.
ona kepeken e soweli.
taso jan lili ona
li lili mute li wawa ala
li ken ala tawa noka!”
mama li kute e ni
li sewi e jan lili
li lon soweli e ona.
tawa li awen.
ona tu li lon soweli.
jan ante ante
li lukin e ni
li toki e ni:
“jan nasa tu a!
soweli li pona
taso suli pi jan tu
li mute tawa ona!
tenpo lili kama la
soweli li jo ala e wawa.
ken la ona li moli!
jan tu li ken ala
lon pi soweli wan!”
mama en jan lili
li kute e ni la,
ona tu li anpa tan soweli
li tawa noka
lon poka soweli.
jan ante sin
li lukin e ni
li toki e ni:
“a a a!
ona tu li jo e soweli
li tawa noka!
jan nasa a!”

toki musi ni
li pana e sona ni:
jan li pali e ijo la
jan ante li toki ike.
tenpo ale la ni li kama.
o kute e jan ante
taso
nasin li pona tawa sina la
o pali
kepeken nasin ni.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: mama en jan lili en soweli

Post by janKipo »

pona! taso mi sona ala e ni: jan li kepeken e nimi sinpin seme poka nim 'anpa' anu 'sewi'. 'lon' anu 'tawa'? tenpo mute la mi pilin e nimi 'tawa'. tenpo ante la 'lon' nimi 'lon' li sama nimi Inli. nimi 'tawa' li tawa poka nimi 'tan'.
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janTali
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:36 pm
Location: ma Italija

Re: mama en jan lili en soweli

Post by janTali »

janKipo wrote:pona! taso mi sona ala e ni: jan li kepeken e nimi sinpin seme poka nim 'anpa' anu 'sewi'. 'lon' anu 'tawa'? tenpo mute la mi pilin e nimi 'tawa'. tenpo ante la 'lon' nimi 'lon' li sama nimi Inli. nimi 'tawa' li tawa poka nimi 'tan'.
Yes, this is one of the questions I wanted to raise with this text. I am sure that, when I chose lon, I didn’t have English in mind: correct preposition usage in English still escapes me after several decades of study...

My reasoning went like this: lon means actual position, tawa means motion, purpose, effort, finality, benefaction, etc. So I used lon to show that they actually reached the positions they were aiming to. In fact, comparison with tan might support this: tan X does not imply contact with X (it’s rather the contrary) so if tawa is simply “tan with a reversed arrow” it doesn’t imply contact/achievement either.

It’s probably just a matter of emphasis, to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

PS: I note nimi sinpin “preposition” :)
jan-ante
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: mama en jan lili en soweli

Post by jan-ante »

janTali wrote: ona li tawa noka la
li pana e telo sijelo!
should be a subject between la and li. i would say ona li tawa noka la telo sijelo li pana / selo li kama telo
jan lili li anpa lon ma.
it could be understood as "fall down", so tawa ma might be better

ona tu li open tawa sin
lon ni.
ol korekt, but lon ni could be ommitted without any loss of understanding
li lon soweli e ona.
lon soweli as a transitive verb might cause some misunderstanding. may be li sewi e jan lili lon monsi pi soweli ona
tawa li awen.
you probably mean "moving was keeping", but although formally correct, that might be confusing as awen has a meaning "to stop" as a transitive verb. to facilitate the understanding you could say: tawa li sin
jan tu li ken ala
lon pi soweli wan!
to minimise any possibility of misinterpretation of lon i would say jan tu li ken ala awen lon soweli wan

ona tu li anpa tan soweli
as above, tawa ma is better IMO
li tawa noka
lon poka soweli.
here you dont need lon, although jan Kipo could state the opposite
o kute e jan ante
taso
o kute taso a jan ante
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: mama en jan lili en soweli

Post by janKipo »

Yes and no.

First point definitely yes.

Second a real argument. I agree that 'anpa lon ma' might mean fall down. The point is that the going down takes place ON the earth, whereas, with 'tawa' the action moves TOWARD the earth. But that leaves the fact that the action is completed unstated (though generally implied, I think). I am coming to prefer the idiom with 'lon' as a transitive verb "place" and the prepositional object for where. Of course, I like that object right after the preposition, but, as noted later, that can be confusing: 'li lon ma e ona'. Or 'lon e ona lon ma', where the verb covers the determines the preposition in a way 'anpa', say, does not.

Third, yes.

Fourth, see two. Again, 'tawa' has its points here. We need to decide which to use or what distinguishes 'tawa' from 'lon' in these clusters.

Fifth. I think that taking 'awen' to mean "stop" is just a plain mistake on Sonja/Pije's part. All its other meanings are about keeping on in the same way. The "stop" meaning appears to come from the notion of staying in one place, not moving, and thus (at best) getting 'kama awen' for "stop". On the other hand, it would be nice to have a word for "stop" other than 'pini', which always seems like the end of a process, not merely of an activity or state. And also seems permanent.

Sixth, don't need 'pi' with 'lon'. Not sure what misinterpretation is available here, unless the 'pi' throws in some possibility I hadn't thought of. For safety sake, I would use 'tawa' rather than 'awen', if a verb is needed.

Seventh, But 'tawa' ma' says something different from 'tan soweli' even though the same physical event is described. maybe 'weka e ona tan soweli tawa ma' to cover all bases.

Eighth, no, I wouldn't. They just say different things. 'poka' soweli' means the horse goes with them, somewhere; 'lon poka soweli' means they walk beside the horse. the latter is a bit more picturesque, perhaps.

Ninth, I think so. The given moral means to pay no attention to your own opinions but only to those of others and I think the intended meaning is, listen to them but don't be ruled by them. I infer from the next comment (and the common sense of fables) that the latter is what is meant.
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